Exxon-Mobil and Apple

I realize that such things are of little interest to many people, but they interest me so...

Exxon-Mobil made news in 2006 when it reported record quarterly and annual profits ($10.7 Billion for Q4 2005 and $36.1 Billion for FY 2005). It went on to report new record annual profits in 2006, again in 2007, and again in 2008 ($45.2 Billion in FY 2008). Annual profits fell off significantly for 2009 and 2010, but for 2011 they will likely approach (though still fall a bit short of) the 2008 total.

At the moment, I'm more interested in that quarterly profit number that I referred to. Since it posted profits in excess of $10 Billion for the 4th quarter of 2005, Exxon-Mobil has posted quarterly profits in excess of $10 Billion eleven more times (with the largest being $14.8 Billion in the third quarter of 2008). This past quarter likely represents the 13th time it's done so, we'll know for sure later this month. As far as I'm aware, Royal Dutch Shell is the only other private company to have posted a $10 Billion plus profit quarter. (*) Not surprisingly, that was in 2008. British Petroleum came close to doing so in 2008.

Why those companies were able to reach that level of profitability is probably, for most people, readily apparent: They've grown (through merger or otherwise) into huge companies and they've benefitted from very high commodity prices. These aren't great business stories so much as they are big business stories. There's nothing truly remarkable (i.e. with specific regard to Exxon-Mobil) about the way Exxon-Mobil has achieved the profit success it has in recent years (other than, some might argue, how it was able to win approval for the merger of Exxon and Mobil some years ago).

Not so when it comes to Apple, and that's the point I'm getting to. Just as Exxon-Mobil will, Apple will report its results for the fourth of calendar year 2012 later this month (for Apple, it will actually be Q1 of its FY 2012). I believe there's a chance - one that I would put at about 40/60 - that it will join Exxon-Mobil and Royal Dutch Shell in the $10 Billion plus profit quarter club.

First, Wow! The reality that that's possible is, in itself, amazing. We're talking about a consumer electronics device producer / retailer that sells a limited range of products and services. Whether one likes Apple products, or the Apple way of doing things, or not, it is hard to deny the remarkable and impressive character of its business story. It has already surpassed global tech giant Microsoft and retail giant Wal-Mart when it comes to profitability and market value. Could it possibly have surpassed Exxon-Mobil in profits in this past quarter, even with oil prices as high as they are? I'm not looking for that to have happened, but I think it is within the realm of possibility. Wow, again! For someone like myself that follows financial matters in some detail, and the results and metrics of various individual companies, that comes close to being a mind-blowing realization.

Anyone want to hazard a guess as to whether Apple hit $10 Billion in profits last quarter? Or, did the unthinkable and beat the tremendous profit machine that is Exxon-Mobil? Regardless - whether it posts $8.3 Billion or $10.9 Billion - it will represent a quarter that stands out in American corporate history, even more so I believe, all things considered, than any that Exxon-Mobil has turned in. Steve Jobs may not only be the Walt Disney and possibly the Thomas Edison of our times, he may be the Henry Ford of our times as well. And that's where, in my opinion, he's gotten far too little credit - he's perhaps the greatest industrialist of my lifetime, though I doubt he'd cherish or even accept the title.

I would like to make this point though: No one should take my comments as an endorsement of Apple stock. A company being great doesn't equate to its stock being great at a particular time, the latter depends in large part on the current pricing of the stock, which I'm not commenting on now. Even accepting that a given company is great, it can have a stock evaluation that is very unattractive just as it can have a stock evaluation that is very attractive.



(*) If anyone knows of another private corporation that's posted a $10 Billion plus profit quarter, please feel free to point it out to me. I didn't do an exhaustive search, I was going mostly from memory. If I'm wrong, I'll appreciate the correction.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
It is interesting to compare the two; absurd oil prices on a product people must have vs. a very optional device.

E/M made profit of about $33 per man, woman and child in the nation last quarter. Doesn't sound like such a big deal when considering how much gas a family of four used in that time, some 500 gallons or so.

However, for Apple to earn about the same off of Ipods and Iphones and Icomputers and all their Istuff, that is certainly a big deal.

Geek.


:lol:
 

Pete

Repete
I do not see how it is even remotely possible for a manufacturer of anything to post $10B in a quarter. Fuel, sure because it is high demand, must have, small unit of purchase (gallon/barel) with profit cababilities at several steps from ground to pump.

What have been Apples past quarters been? Is $10B a huge jump or have they been in the $8B range before?
 
I do not see how it is even remotely possible for a manufacturer of anything to post $10B in a quarter. Fuel, sure because it is high demand, must have, small unit of purchase (gallon/barel) with profit cababilities at several steps from ground to pump.

What have been Apples past quarters been? Is $10B a huge jump or have they been in the $8B range before?

Apple's last 10 quarterly profits:

$1.8 Billion
$2.5 Billion
$3.4 Billion (Christmas quarter)
$3.1 Billion
$3.3 Billion
$4.3 Billion
$6.0 Billion (Christmas quarter)
$6.0 Billion
$7.3 Billion
$6.6 Billion

Consensus estimates for this last quarter: $9.2 Billion


There are a number of reasons to believe that this past quarter will represent significant sequential profit growth, including: (1) it's a Christmas quarter, which historically means a significant step up, (2) sales metrics from this past quarter that we've got a pretty good idea about - e.g., iPhone sales were through the roof, and that's Apple's biggest profit driver, and the reality that the iPhone was deep into its product cycle in the previous quarter, and many were waiting for a new version, was the reason profits weren't as high in that previous quarter (otherwise, that quarter was nothing short of blowout), (3) because of the way Apple defines its quarters, this past quarter will have an extra week in it (both as compared to the previous quarter and as compared to prior Christmas quarters), and (4) Apple's own guidance for this past quarter (which guidance is always very conservative, so much so that nobody pays attention to it anymore because it's always so far below what their results end up being).

I would be very surprised if Apple didn't beat $8 Billion in profit in 4Q CY 2011. Is it possible, sure, but I don't think it's very likely.

For a little more perspective, Apple made nearly twice as much profit as Walmart did in each of the first three quarters of CY 2011 (Walmart's quarters are offset by a month, but you can still see the comparison). And, just to be clear, we're talking about after tax profits - Apple's income tax liability through the first three quarters of CY 2011 was more than $6 Billion.
 
It is interesting to compare the two; absurd oil prices on a product people must have vs. a very optional device.

E/M made profit of about $33 per man, woman and child in the nation last quarter. Doesn't sound like such a big deal when considering how much gas a family of four used in that time, some 500 gallons or so.

However, for Apple to earn about the same off of Ipods and Iphones and Icomputers and all their Istuff, that is certainly a big deal.

Geek.


:lol:

Takes one to knows one. :neener:
 
Apple stock hit an all-time high of $427.75 / share earlier today. That represents a market cap of almost $398 Billion (it's down to about $394 Billion right now). Exxon-Mobil's market cap is now around $409 Billion.
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
Apple stock hit an all-time high of $427.75 / share earlier today. That represents a market cap of almost $398 Billion (it's down to about $394 Billion right now). Exxon-Mobil's market cap is now around $409 Billion.

Which, if it were a country, would make its market cap the 31st largest GDP in the world. Right between Malaysia (30) and Belgium (31). Based on revenue as GDP, it would be 66 - right between Cuba (65) and Iraq (66).
 
Which, if it were a country, would make its market cap the 31st largest GDP in the world. Right between Malaysia (30) and Belgium (31). Based on revenue as GDP, it would be 66 - right between Cuba (65) and Iraq (66).

Behind Cuba by revenue? That's an outrage, all they do is make cigars, right?
 
E/M made profit of about $33 per man, woman and child in the nation last quarter. Doesn't sound like such a big deal when considering how much gas a family of four used in that time, some 500 gallons or so.

You made me curious enough to look up Exxon-Mobil's crude oil production relative to the production of the United States. Domestic production in 2010 was 5.5 million barrels per day, more or less. It looks like Exxon-Mobil's total liquids production (most of which would have been crude oil) in 2010 was a little more than 2.4 million barrels per day, with a little less than 400,000 of them coming from U.S. operations. It produced another 2.0 million or so barrel oil equivalents of natural gas per day, with about 1.7 million of them coming from U.S. operations.
 

FromTexas

This Space for Rent
Behind Cuba by revenue? That's an outrage, all they do is make cigars, right?

:lol:
I was actually surprised that Iraq, even its reduced oil producing state, generates less revenue than Cuba. I was also surprised to learn that Cuba has a very extensive biotech industry. :shrug:

Did you know Cuba's public debt is only 35% of their GDP? How's that for pondering...
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
It is interesting to compare the two; absurd oil prices on a product people must have vs. a very optional device.

E/M made profit of about $33 per man, woman and child in the nation last quarter. Doesn't sound like such a big deal when considering how much gas a family of four used in that time, some 500 gallons or so.

However, for Apple to earn about the same off of Ipods and Iphones and Icomputers and all their Istuff, that is certainly a big deal.

Geek.


:lol:
Then do the math and figure how much money the government made if the gas company made 10 billion.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Then do the math and figure how much money the government made if the gas company made 10 billion.

Why? They're not related. The government gets a set price per gallon whereas the oil companies cut goes up and down.

The government used to net a lot more per gallon than the oil company and WAY more than the gas station. Now, they just net a 'good bit' more.

I am guessing that is where you're going with this?
 
Why? They're not related. The government gets a set price per gallon whereas the oil companies cut goes up and down.

The government used to net a lot more per gallon than the oil company and WAY more than the gas station. Now, they just net a 'good bit' more.

I am guessing that is where you're going with this?

In general, I think the oil company (i.e. the segment producing oil) nets more per gallon now than the government does, though the government probably does net more than the gas stations (and the downstream segment of oil companies).
 
:lol:
I was actually surprised that Iraq, even its reduced oil producing state, generates less revenue than Cuba. I was also surprised to learn that Cuba has a very extensive biotech industry. :shrug:

Did you know Cuba's public debt is only 35% of their GDP? How's that for pondering...

It's easier to run a tighter ship when you aren't stifled by (real) democratic processes. :lol:
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Why? They're not related. The government gets a set price per gallon whereas the oil companies cut goes up and down.

The government used to net a lot more per gallon than the oil company and WAY more than the gas station. Now, they just net a 'good bit' more.

I am guessing that is where you're going with this?

Yes it is. Despite the "tax breaks" the government STILL makes more than the gas company does off of the gas companies products.

Is there ANY other corporation out there providing revenue even closely similar than the Oil Companies? Yet they are the BIG Bad Guys!!

And this is just the tax at the pump, not to include the corporate taxes they pay..

Imagine Apple getting hit with a "surcharge" at the register of an additional $500 per laptop or iPhone.. on top of the taxes they currently pay
 
Yes it is. Despite the "tax breaks" the government STILL makes more than the gas company does off of the gas companies products.

Is there ANY other corporation out there providing revenue even closely similar than the Oil Companies? Yet they are the BIG Bad Guys!!

And this is just the tax at the pump, not to include the corporate taxes they pay..

Imagine Apple getting hit with a "surcharge" at the register of an additional $500 per laptop or iPhone.. on top of the taxes they currently pay

If we're talking about the oil companies, no they don't. If we're just talking about what the oil companies make from refining, marketing, and retailing fuel products, then it might be true. But, that's not how oil companies make their money or how they try to make their money. They make their money taking oil out of the ground and delivering it to the refineries.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
If we're talking about the oil companies, no they don't. If we're just talking about what the oil companies make from refining, marketing, and retailing fuel products, then it might be true. But, that's not how oil companies make their money or how they try to make their money. They make their money taking oil out of the ground and delivering it to the refineries.

No they don't. They make their money by getting the government to institute polices that make that oil worth $100 a barrel when they get it out of the ground and deliver it to refineries.

:evil:
 
No they don't. They make their money by getting the government to institute polices that make that oil worth $100 a barrel when they get it out of the ground and deliver it to refineries.

:evil:

:lol: Okay, then: Thanks to government policies, they realize their profits by taking the oil out of the ground and delivering it to the refineries.
 
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