Gays & Maryland Continued

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
First, why lock down a mechanism designed to get people to communicate their thoughts like a forum?  This just seems to be a hot topic that shows that we have a lot of differing views amongst us.  Under the old format this thing would crisscross and backtrack all over the place, but I bet it would look impressive.

BBC,

After my last post I got called away and have just now returned to a PC or I would have posted this before the lockdown.  It would be easy to turn this into a pissing contest and point out just how hypocritical you have been as you espouse your religious beliefs and then deny equal treatment for all.  It's not necessary though as others can read what you have written and make that call for themselves.  You scream for your right to express your beliefs but when someone is in disagreement with you, you say “I don't think anyone should be on here trying to bash my beliefs in what the Bible says…”   First I am not here to bash anyone’s religious beliefs only to provide an opinion on the topic.  Religion has been tied to the topic throughout this discussion as it has been on others.  I respect your beliefs but I don’t have to agree with them and your displayed “Christian” attitude makes it more difficult for me to agree with or even consider them.  It seems everyone is expected to turn the other cheek except those that are very devout.  I noticed you didn’t even attempt to answer the question I asked previously.  I offer it to you again, why did God leave such an important task to man?  To my knowledge the only written works of God were on the tablets that were given to Moses containing his commandments.  

With regard to the actual law, if you had cared to put the effort into checking what I have commented on throughout the previous extremely long string you would find that I have said the law was useless and unnecessary because of protections already in place.  I said that I felt that this law would do more damage for their cause if passed in its current form.  I have also said that homosexuals should enjoy the same freedoms as the rest of us.  You seem to have a very selective and narrow choice on what you read and how you respond.  I guess that is another Christian characteristic of yours.  As far as this law impacting bigotry and hatred all I have seen it do is inflame it.  
 

Jo1750

Member
Ken, it isn't the passage of this law that caused the inflamation...it was already there, though only noticed by the people who suffered discrimination and the ones who inflicted it on them.  I think that it has also brought the reality of the discrimination of gays to the attention of many people who didn't realize these things were happening until they came out during the testimonies given before the Governor's Special Commission to Study Discrimination of Gays in Maryland.

BBC, you sound so sure that sexual orientation is a choice.  How can that be unless you are equally attracted to both sexes....that is a bi-sexual and they do have a choice.  I'm a heterosexual female and I clearly remember in my early teens I started getting romantic feelings toward men...I didn't decide or choose to do it, it just happened.  My gay daughter said the opposite happened to her but because of the social stigma, she denied it and dated guys until she was 29 and couldn't live the lie any more.  I believe the only choice she had was to be true to herself or live a lie....no different than if I tried to be gay, it just isn't me.  Just some food for thought, I don't expect you to agree with me.
 

Hessian

Well-Known Member
Thanks Ken for stoking the coals and keeping the forum going. We may disagree on a few points but its the dialogue that is informative, humorous, frustrating etc. Again, thanks.

Was it AP or Jo1750 that documented all those "lies" in the last post. Bravo! Where there is a will, there is a way. I suppose  I'll keep an eye out for the December ruling.

Strange as it may seem, this law sounds utterly toothless BY ITS DEFENDANTS! That is amusing. They make their case to support it by telling what it won't do. Huh?

I will tell you again what it will do...it will follow the pattern of other states who will try to create more "Civil Rights" legislation that as you know...has no end. Protections, suits, codes, inspectors, and a mountain of bureaucrats follow...all because Gays want a worthless law passed--the true heart of liberalism: Make people "FEEL" like it will help, it will protect, it will support liberty when the paradox reality is...it begins taking more liberties away.

The more gays rant about it, the more common decent folk become aware, are disgusted and decide to vote against it.(If they are allowed that choice!)

Yes Ken I remember your stand...and clarifications.
Yes BBC, I will certainly repeat the compliment the non-believer gave you "Your faith is too strong..." Well done.
TT...I agree with much of your posting but I also am worried that the Church for too long now has taken a "Live and Let Live" attitude or "We should stay out of politics." policy.
We need courageous pastors and laymen to condemn those things that will eventually flare into a full-all-out assault on the church. It is not enough to teach our children it is wrong. We must wake up the sleepy and apathetic like a trumpet in the night, fore-telling the wave of things to come because we see them better than others.
(And we know it to be true!)...Not "scare mongering."
There are many who will outright reject it and slander it, some who see the glimmer of truth and are open to hearing more, and those who know it and are encouraged to take a bolder stand.
Gays: I loathe their behavior but find hope in numerous bulletins and websites proclaiming the news of those who have shed the shackles that they forged. Welcome back to decency.

Veritas.
 

PmoneyandTT

New Member
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 NT

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

To answer King Ken's question - why did he use Man to write the bible.. Well first of all God is not a magic show.  He has to do things the legal way.. By using man - he was a witness to these thoughts and actions that took place throughout the bible times.. The original language God used is hebrew.. So ofcourse the bible has been written for our understanding.. It doesn't matter if we explain to you - over and over again.. You will not get it.. You do not care to get it.. As a Christian its our job to spread the gossip.. Whether you believe it or not is your choice. I am not one of those christians that would turn my back on anyone - because no Man is perfect - We live in flesh; we are going to do fleshy things.. But with Grace from God - he can turn us from our evil ways.. And practicing the OT - with the burning of animals - is over.. Jesus died for our salvation - so we don't need to do those things anymore..

Oh believe me - my leaders in the church - come straight out and tell you - what God will not allow - and you will be condemned if you choose to live that life.. But you can be saved - if you turn from your evil ways.. And believe me - a human can not do it by himself - Thats where you ask God to come into your life - he will change your inside - so your outside flesh can be changed.

Bottom line - I will not support anything dealing with homosexual bill - or bi-sexual bill.. And no one can make me believe otherwise.
 
B

BigBrothaCon

Guest
First of all I have to address Ken's post about me being hypocritical.  Ken you stated that I did not believe in equal treatment.  I never said that so you have slandered my position on this issue.  Gay and straight people should all be treated equally under the law.  Your being gay does not make me any better than you.  Just because God does not like it or I don't like homosexuality does not mean that He or I don't love gay people or feel that they should be treated unfairly.

I really don't want to get into a conversation with you because as far as you are concerned you are right and I am wrong.  There is no need to get into a pissing contest with you because it is like beating a dead horse.
If you believe my "Christian" attitude is getting in your way then don't read my posts.  I believe your "Secular" attitude makes it more difficult for me to agree with or even consider your posts.

To answer your question about leaving such an important task to man.  I believe Pmoney answered that question and I will refer you to her if you don't understand.

About me not caring, if I had not cared I would not have went out of my way to post anything in the first place.  This issue has a great importance to me, but I did not feel like going all the way back 17 pages and reading your long posts or anyone else's.  I gave my opinion and that did not require me going back and reading your posts.  If you agree that the law is unnecessary, then is it necessary to point it out.  Do you get some kind of glory out of repeating your stances on things? Your back to your same old stuff.

Here are some of the attacks on me.

"You seem to have a very selective and narrow choice on what you read and how you respond.  I guess that is another Christian characteristic of yours.  As far as this law impacting bigotry and hatred all I have seen it do is inflame it."

Where did this come from?

"It would be easy to turn this into a pissing contest and point out just how hypocritical you have been as you espouse your religious beliefs and then deny equal treatment for all. "

Never said I wanted to deny anybody's rights.  Now who is being selective and narrow-minded.

"if you had cared to put the effort into checking what I have commented on throughout the previous extremely long string you would find that I have said the law was useless and unnecessary because of protections already in place."

You don't even know me so how can you determine what I care about.  The only person on this forum that can determine what I care about is PmoneyandTT.

"I respect your beliefs but I don’t have to agree with them and your displayed “Christian” attitude makes it more difficult for me to agree with or even consider them."

Have I attacked you in anyway on this forum with my christian attitude.  I don't think so Ken.  
 

Jimmyrich

Member
Again, I'll echo the thanks for keeping this thread alive.  I don't think anyone involved is having a tough time following it. It's a discussion; it's going to take natural twists and turns and eventually cut to the heart of the problem, which is FAR beyond the semantics of one piece of legislation.

Again, though, I'm wondering why Hessian and PmoneyandTT refuse to answer the questions and charges posed by Ken?  Both of you have claimed not to want gay-related material "crammed down your throat". At the same time, you go off about your duty to witness to people and "sound a trumpet" in the church. There are MANY Christians that want nothing to do with your fundamentalist approach to Christianity.  The church has been changing with the times for as long as it's been in existance. Jesus himself never really envisioned the kind of split, denomination-driven, politically-motivated entity that the "Church" has become.  And you talk about Gay rights getting shoved down your throats??  What about every sunday about 10 channels being devoted to christian evengelical programming?  What about an entire NETWORK dedicated to fundamentalist thinking with a leader who's so ignorant as to suggest that the current attacks on America are because "God is punnishing us for our acceptance of homosexuality etc.."??  That kind of wrong-headded thinking is easily found in the public arena. People knocking at 6:00pm offering door-to-door salvation.  People standing on the street corner preaching the gospel on your morning commute.  When was the last time you were accosted by a gay man on the street that tried to witness to you about the joys of gay sex???  It doesn't happen.
Gays are not looking for converts to their way of life; they are seeking acceptance and freedom from persecution.  And that's what our country is all about.  So why, when you were previously posed this idea, did you side step it with only talk of a "well wait, and you'll see how right I am" kinda attitude?  Is it beacause you really have NO response to that?
 

PmoneyandTT

New Member
Well you wouldn't believe anything I have to post.. So Im not going to waste my time..

Its required as a Christian to spread the gossip.. So when you stand before Judgement and God ask you why you didn't believe in him  or follow his word- you can't say "I wasn't told" - end of story.. Don't read my post - and you won't have to be subject to any God stuff - My justification of not wanting the gay bill to pass is my belief in Gods word. So Im justifying..
 

Jo1750

Member
PmoneyandTT, you quoted 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10..."nor homosexuals".....my Bible and several other interpretations of the Bible that I've checked say: nor effeminate, not homosexuals.  The meaning of effeminate during the time that the Bible was written (which is what makes it correct) was applied to the young men who were prostituting in the temples....sex for money or favors.  That is not homosexuality.
 

Jo1750

Member
Hessian, Morninghours was the one who gave an account of the many lies that are documented in the court records, I only had first-hand knowledge of one.  In my opinion, it should take only one lie to invalidate a petition because you don't know how many people signed the petition after believing that one lie.  It corrupts the whole referendum process.  

The only reason the proponets of this legislation are having to explain what the law doesn't do is because the opponents are lying about what the law does do.  How can you be proud of a group of "self-professed Christians" who are blatantly lying to try to get what they want?  
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
BBC,

Maybe I am reading you a little to literal in your comments.  But for clarity I would like you to know that I do not and never have considered myself gay or homosexual.  My wife can vouch for that.  I have however been in agreement with those in the gay community that they should be treated as equals with all other people living in our country.  I disagree with them on how significant this law is to their cause.

You say I slandered you, get real.  Your comment in the previous thread where you said, “You know I am getting tired of you hypocrites on here defending and legitimatizing homosexuals rights,”  sounds to me if you are against them being treated as equals.  Now you backtrack and change your tune and say you’ve been slandered, what a crock.

I realize that you don’t want to discuss this for whatever reasons you decide (because I have never said I am right and you are wrong, sounds like some of that slander you were crying about earlier) but just because you don’t want to do something doesn’t mean I will listen to you.

I am of the opinion that you will let a man’s religion tell you what he believed God said and you take it as the truth without questioning the obvious flaws.  Just because I am not as religious as someone else is doesn’t mean I can’t believe.  I just have a hard time believing and blindly following what other people tell me is the truth when they aren’t sure themselves.  I think this in some ways is zealotry and I can deal with that.  I accept your desire to be that devoted but at the same time you, being the Christian that you are, should accept my desire to believe as I do.  That is the tolerance that the man that wrote your Bible was talking about, wasn’t it?
 

SxyPrincess

New Member
Very well said Jimmy, and I have to agree with EVERYTHING you have said.  I can relate to the 6 p.m. door knockings....they won't go away.  It's so frustrating when your right in the middle of making dinner.  :cussing:  

I can see this is turning into a religious discussin...let me just add something:  You look at Catholic Churches and they all have BINGO halls, but then they don't promote gambling.  Now isn't that a bit hypocritical???
 
B

BigBrothaCon

Guest
I Corinthians 6:9-10 does say exactly this in the King James version.

006:009 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
 
006:010 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.  


I looked up Effeminate in the Websters II New Riverside Dictionary and the definition is-"Having qualities more often associated with women than with men." or in other words, homosexuals or gays.  Besides that,  A man is only supposed to have a relationship with a woman and that relationship should involve marriage at some point before they have intercourse.  So if two gay people have "sex", then they are in turn committing fornication anyway.

Lightning
If any Christian is being deceptive about the petition then they are wrong and I completely disagree with anyone being deceptive about this.
 

PmoneyandTT

New Member
Well I won't get into catholics - they don't believe in marrying their priest.. So they have homosexuals running around.. I don't know if you heard of TD Jakes - thats my bible that I read - general editions.. Not King James version... And another thing - men were selling themselves to other men.. Women in those times - A women having sex with another man - she was a harlot.. Women were possessions - more or less - maybe not to the extent like muslims - but they had their place.. were not free like we are now in the united states.. Plus men that sale themselves now - hardly sell themselves to women - its men.. Have you ever been up 9th street after hours? Well since I work here in DC - you see more then ST Mary county.. This is a long drawn posting.. You don't believe me - I will not accept your justification - Im going to leave it at that.. YOur comfortable in what you believe.. Im sure of what I believe.. case closed..
 
B

BigBrothaCon

Guest
Ken,
If your not gay, then your not gay.  You don't have to be accountable to me.  If you felt that I was calling you gay, then as usual I have been misread and I apologize if you think I called you that.

Secondly,
If you would have read my whole statement when I was talking about everyone defending homosexual rights, you would have found that I was saying that there are people defending homosexuals and criticizing Christians and I did not think that was fair.  That is disrespecting my beliefs to justify someone else's.

Thirdly,
Ken you don't have to say right or wrong.  You say it in so many different ways.  Like your explanation about Christians.  You think you know what being a Christian is all about and you come up with a bunch of garbage about the things you see wrong with them and their beliefs.  I respect the fact you believe Christianity is full of Zealots, but respect the fact that I think homosexuality is wrong and leave it at that.

I have not said anything disparaging to you so have a little respect for my beliefs and I will respect yours.  You keep thinking that a man or men made up the word of God, but at the same time you believe there was a George Washington.  I have faith that the word of God is written in the Bible.  I don't have to prove that to you because I made a choice to believe in what it says for me.  You have made your choice, now understand that I have made mine.
 
Quote: from BigBrothaCon on 12:07 pm on Nov. 8, 2001[br]I Corinthians 6:9-10 does say exactly this in the King James version.

006:009 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
 
006:010 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.  

I looked up Effeminate in the Websters II New Riverside Dictionary and the definition is-"Having qualities more often associated with women than with men."
So, people "Having qualities more often associated with women than with men" can't get into heaven?

That's a tough break for a lot of women I know.

On the other hand, I can't wait to break that news to some really butch lesbians I know.  Hey girls, you're off the hook!

Bwahahahaha!!!
 
B

BigBrothaCon

Guest
That is in reference to men Morninghours.  You are making this more difficult than it is.
 

Jimmyrich

Member
First of all, to address the "George Washington" arguement that's been brought up at least twice. No one is saying that they don't believe there "WAS" a Jesus.  Just as you most likely believe there "WAS" a George Washington.  Thing is, not everything written about them in historical context has to be true. The cherry tree story, for example, is most likely folk-lore.  And if you told me stories about George Washington walking on water and turning water into wine, I'd probably NOT believe them either even though I believe him to have existed.  Not to mention the fact that accounts of the existance of GW (not Bush) were written AS HE WAS ALIVE and records of his existance are found in the literature of numerous countires.  Written record of Jesus wasn't put down until at least hundreds of years AFTER his death.  So it was all passed on by word of mouth, changed, and re-interpreted no doubt (ever played "telephone" with even 8 people?).  So not only can the words in the Bible not necessarily be directly linked to anything from Jesus's time, the interpretations have changed IN OUR LIFETIME. Now, there are fundamentalist that choose to make illogical jumps in reasoning (i.e.--effeminate means having more womanly than masculine qualities=homosexual). That's just not the case. My brother has plenty of very masculine gay friends and we all know an effeminate heterosexual.  So that, again, fails to pass any sort of logical scrutiny.  
BBC you ARE changing your tone over and over again; at once appearing non-confrontational and trying to hear people out yet then becoming defensive and accusatory. Then, claiming that you have not become so.
Look--If this thread is just going to end with people taking the stance that either homosexuality is right or it is wrong, then there's no point to it as we will never agree. The only thing we can debate is about the legal implications and rights that they are given. You are just going to think that gays are wrong and that's that. Fine. I don't care. But you have to deal with the fact that they exist and they are looking for rights now. Not your sympathy and acceptance just yet but simple protection from people with views like Hessian, who I still cannot get over how much he sounds like Jerry Fallwell and Pat Robertson...but anyway that's the real issue here.
And you seem to be for their having rights and protection at least.  So I think that's somewhere where we can find common ground?
 

valentino

Member
  All I have to say is "Dip me in honey and throw me to the Lesbians" courtesy of a bumper sticker I saw last week.  
  They also had another one that said "Do not steal, the Government hates competition"  Both amusing as far as I am concerned.

(Edited by valentino at 2:04 pm on Nov. 8, 2001)
 

Christy

b*tch rocket
Oh Geez Valentino, you sound like my husband!  I know for a fact that if I came home and declared I was a lesbian, he'd call all his friends up whooping with glee (just so long as he was dipped in honey and thrown into them!)

Which brings up another area for debate.  Why is it, that it's less offensive and easier to accept women smoochin up on another woman, yet you reverse the gender and everyone is completely grossed out (men at least).  I have to admit, I have the same feelings.  I've yet to figure out why that is.  
 

Christy

b*tch rocket
Oh Geez Valentino, you sound like my dear sweet husband!  I know for a fact that if I came home and declared I was a lesbian, he'd call all his friends up whooping with glee (just so long as he was dipped in honey and thrown into them!  The lesbians that is!)

Which brings up another area for debate.  Why is it, that it's less offensive and easier to accept women smoochin up on another woman, yet you reverse the gender and everyone is completely grossed out (men at least).  I have to admit, I have the same feelings.  I've yet to figure out why that is.  
 
Top