Am I the only want that wants to go over the cliff
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nobody really
I need a nap
:crickets:
bcp
In My Opinion
I think it would be a fitting thing for the country to go over the cliff, then and only then will the entitlement crowd understand that if the working class dont work and make money, there is nothing for them to collect.
Sure, a few of the current welfare crowd will starve to death or be killed while trying to steal, but thats not my problem and I really just dont care enough about them to worry about their death.
Sure, a few of the current welfare crowd will starve to death or be killed while trying to steal, but thats not my problem and I really just dont care enough about them to worry about their death.
Hessian
Well-Known Member
The problem is the ripples...
Uncertainty is ONE issue (What will it do to me, my family, my community)
The second problem is WHO will get blamed for the cliff: this IS a government manufactured recession. Period. When the MSM starts chanting about Tea Party radicals and Wall ST fat cats,...we see obama's dream of a shattered, class-warfare society emerging.
I am tired of this recession, the cost of fuel, the cut backs, the entitlement crowd demanding more...when will we turn this around and change people's minds? There is nothing to fear but fear itself (and fascists in the Democratic party).
Uncertainty is ONE issue (What will it do to me, my family, my community)
The second problem is WHO will get blamed for the cliff: this IS a government manufactured recession. Period. When the MSM starts chanting about Tea Party radicals and Wall ST fat cats,...we see obama's dream of a shattered, class-warfare society emerging.
I am tired of this recession, the cost of fuel, the cut backs, the entitlement crowd demanding more...when will we turn this around and change people's minds? There is nothing to fear but fear itself (and fascists in the Democratic party).
ylexot
Super Genius
My problem with this is that higher taxes DOES NOT equal higher revenue. It can increase revenue, but it can just as easily decrease revenue (Google MD's millionaire tax).
I like cutting spending. I even like cutting from the military. However, there are smart ways to cut spending and dumb ways to cut spending.
A smart way would be to use a pairwise comparison of programs. Compare program X to program Y and make a decision about which is more important. Do that for every program in the budget and you can mathematically rank every program. Start funding at the top until you run out of money (or preferably before) and cut the rest.
A dumb way is to blindly cut 20% from everything.
But since Congress will not do the smart thing, going over the cliff is probably better than whatever crap they come up with to avoid it.
Aren't you the same BCP who posted yesterday about how distraught you were over the possibility that a poor kid couldn't afford the class trip to New York and how you have taught your kid to pay for the lunch of any poor kid who went on the trip?
"I gave my daughter the 150.00 in my wallet for the trip. At least I know that if someone is out of cash and hungry, she will pay for their food. (raised her that way)
But seriously, what does the school do if little Johnnys parents cant come up with the money for what I consider an expensive trip? "
Today, you just don't care enough about the "welfare crowd"...they can starve or kill each other?
Yesterday you want the school to help "little johnny's parents".
Today...its' F*** Them...let em all die...god will sort them out!
aps45819
24/7 Single Dad
Obama doesn't want to increase revenue, he's already turned down a counter offer from the repubs that increases revenues.
It's about punishing success and eliminating the middle class
Hessian
Well-Known Member
Not reading BCP's mind,...but
I suspect we both share a sympathy with the working poor. Those who decided that a large family is a GOOD thing, and thus spread what little they have among them. Those that hate to take a handout but are very thankful when it is offered.
I have been known to look for blue-collar type working families at restaurants and ask the waitress if I can put the kids dessert on my tab. Not because I am rich, nor do I want even to be thanked,...but because I love to see a nuclear family taking time to spend with each other even if it dents the wallet.
Free Lunch, subsidized housing, Medicaid, welfare, ...were NEVER designed to be a perpetual way of life. Those who have mastered the sytem to ride continually off our dime are LEECHES,...I have no pity on them.
I suspect we both share a sympathy with the working poor. Those who decided that a large family is a GOOD thing, and thus spread what little they have among them. Those that hate to take a handout but are very thankful when it is offered.
I have been known to look for blue-collar type working families at restaurants and ask the waitress if I can put the kids dessert on my tab. Not because I am rich, nor do I want even to be thanked,...but because I love to see a nuclear family taking time to spend with each other even if it dents the wallet.
Free Lunch, subsidized housing, Medicaid, welfare, ...were NEVER designed to be a perpetual way of life. Those who have mastered the sytem to ride continually off our dime are LEECHES,...I have no pity on them.
Hessian
Well-Known Member
(While lying about how much he wants to help them.) The more he spreads dependency, the more he has stolen their vote in 2014 (and maybe for more than a generation). Clov-Piv strategy is to break the system: He is well on his way to doing that.
FreedomFan
Snarky 'ol Cuss
I don't speak for bcp, but it sounds like he did exactly the correct thing: reach into his pocket *voluntarily* to help rather than be forced to help at gunpoint.
bcp
In My Opinion
Not talking about the welfare crowd in her school, and certainly not in this class Its an AP class, (the ones I speak of dont even have the desire to go to school let alone challenge themselves). These would be the children of the WORKING poor, or the ones that make/made good money until the economy was destroyed by obama and now are living tight.
These people deserve help.
those that think its acceptable to collect money for never doing a damn thing, demand cell phones, flat screens etc.. while pumping out more kids. Those are the ones that would give me great joy should they be the first to starve to death.
SamSpade
Well-Known Member
Going over the cliff gives Obama exactly what he wants. More taxes, more spending and blame the GOP. I say, give him what he asks for and let him own it.
I don't see a solution likely to happen - going over means almost certainly another recession. Avoiding it at the other extreme means at best, staying right where we are until we are irretrievably broke.
I don't see a solution likely to happen - going over means almost certainly another recession. Avoiding it at the other extreme means at best, staying right where we are until we are irretrievably broke.
PsyOps
Pixelated
If Americans weren’t able to make Obama own the last 4 years, what makes you think they will see that he owns this current mess?
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Here's a terrifying thought to consider; we could go through that and even though, in a broader sense, it's really not much at all, it will be real pain for real people if they're cut and then...
Nothing. Just more spending, more entitlements, more government. In short, more of what got us here.
This is why I keep doing two things; on the one hand, asking what could possibly bring about the level of economic growth we need and, two, absent any real growth, the only practical solutions I see; one, enormous write off of debt coupled with higher interest rates and appropriate regulations to avoid going back down the same path and, two, cheap energy.
I keep throwing this out there and no one cares because it is so bleak;
To stop spending $1 trillion more a year we need growth of 6%. That is simply to have $1,000,000,000,000 more if gross dollars and that assumes the government takes ever penny of it.
If we simply cut that much spending, it does NOT matter what it was being spent on, income transfer, defense, studying the sex life of water and air, that is still $1 trillion people are depending on and those folks have lives to live, mouths to feed, bills to pay and if that trillion isn't coming from government spending, it HAS to come from somewhere so, we STILL need 6% just to STOP the bleeding.
Next up is poverty, households earning $22,000 a year or less. $60,000 per household, 17 million households, $1 trillion, IS being spent in one form or another, state and fed, income transfer, subsidies, etc, to help them. That's another 6% in growth we need if the trillion we stop borrowing every year to close the gap for them. That money isn't just for them, it is also the lifeblood of people who make their living in the welfare sector.
The third leg of this stool is paying DOWN debt. We need ANOTHER 6% in growth to pay down a trillion a year.
Now, money is fungible. Not all cuts have to go to the same place and increases can be made here or there but, that requires a corresponding cut elsewhere. The larger point is that we need some combination of;
1. 6% growth to STOP annual deficits averaging over $1 trillion a year.
2. 6% growth to go where that trillion is currently going.
3. 6% to pay down a trillion a year.
President Obama thinks simply taking a few billion a year from rich people is smart. It's not. It only makes the problem worse because, again, money is fungible. If government takes it from the rich, that means wherever they were spending it before...loses it. And it doesn't matter if that is yachts, caviar or vacations; they are putting it in the economy.
Republicans think you can just cut it. Well, where? Why and how? Every single dollar government spends, no matter what it is for, goes into someones groceries, rent or mortgage, cars, health, kids, you name it. So, simply cutting can stop the need for the 6% growth for #1 above but, folks gotta find that $ somewhere.
Corporations are sitting on trillions. The left really just wants to take it. That's all well and good, just like the Stimulus, for a day, for a year or two but, then we still need GROWTH now and next year and the year after.
This is why I keep coming back to debt and energy; if we cut home mortgage debt by half BUT allow interest rates to 7%, banks have half the balance sheet but over twice the REAL income. Same with student loans. Wipe it out. It's government promoted debt for government approved activity, education, that has collapsed in value...because of the government.
And energy. Middle class people are hurt, a lot, every day, by energy costs. At home, in the car, lost wages, increased costs of everything.
Absent those two, both of which put, by my math, $1.5 trillion into the pockets of consumers, per year, where it NEEDS to be, where does the growth come from?
Housing? Commercial real estate? Tech? Lying about your books?
We are in an ENORMOUS whole and tax the rich, cut a few bucks in spending, NONE of that scratches the REAL growth we need. 6% growth is HUGE. 12% is crazy. 18% has happened twice since WWII; right after the war and early in Reagan when tax cuts and defense spending kicked in.
Growth, sustained, above 10% was the 50's, the post war (victory) boom.
We are sooooooooooooooo ####ed.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Time.
And better leadership on the right. The GOP has no discernible plan so, THAT, not the media, not Obama, not some vast left wing conspiracy, is the problem.
Nothing stops Baynor from running out there every day screaming and yelling that his hands are tied by the administration and the senate. But, of course, that requires a plan. And he has none because many of his constituents do fine with big spending and big debt.
It is, of course, easier to just blame the media...
Larry Gude
Strung Out
Is there any wild dream you have that states that, if we don't go over the cliff, spending would actually be cut anyway? Real cuts?
This is a fools errand if the GOP is even bothering to try and stop this. They're not in charge. They offer a plan and walk away. It's up to Obama and Reid and if they play it any other way then they are as dumb as they've been since they took over in '10 rescuing Obama when he was busy hanging himself.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
We can't have that.
Larry Gude
Strung Out
As I argue with my 6/6/6 argument
the 'fiscal' cliff is just another drop in our collective bucket. We are WORLDS away from what we need to happen.