A Political Discussion

[migtig]

Not about political parties. I want to share a conversation and get your input/feedback.

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Why does a thief steal? To get food for himself and his family. Maybe he wants drugs and cannot afford them. Maybe he wants fancy electronics. He (the thief) makes no bones about it. You have money and he has a gun aimed at you and he takes your money. He does not pretend he is stealing from you for your own good. He will use his money for his own benefit, not yours. It is a crime, you and the theif both know it. Even he is ging to call it that if someone steals from him what he stole from you.


But the government takes our money and says it will spend it better than we can. It says it is doing it for our own good, whether we approve or not. And it never admits what it does is a crime. It does not wait for our permission before it decided what to buy with our money either.

 

[MarieB]

This made me think about a recent conversation I had with someone about California's income tax increase. I was shocked (maybe I shouldn't have been) that the initiative actually made the increase retroactive to be beginning of 2012. Now that is stealing from those who did not vote for it

 

[PsyOps]

Taxes are not just a means to collect money to run the government and abused for pet projects and wasteful spending; it’s a tool to pin one social class against another. Our constitution allows the government to collect taxes to run the government. At what point does it become theft; that our taxes are no longer used to run government, they are abused by politicians that aim to use it for their own selfish goals?

 

[FreedomFan]

Not about political parties. I want to share a conversation and get your input/feedback.

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Why does a thief steal? To get food for himself and his family. Maybe he wants drugs and cannot afford them. Maybe he wants fancy electronics. He (the thief) makes no bones about it. You have money and he has a gun aimed at you and he takes your money. He does not pretend he is stealing from you for your own good. He will use his money for his own benefit, not yours. It is a crime, you and the theif both know it. Even he is ging to call it that if someone steals from him what he stole from you.


But the government takes our money and says it will spend it better than we can. It says it is doing it for our own good, whether we approve or not. And it never admits what it does is a crime. It does not wait for our permission before it decided what to buy with our money either.

Right on, brother or sister.

Taxation is based on the premise that the goobermint has a higher claim on our income than we do. Social contract my ass.

If a thief robs you and steals $100 from your wallet, is it any better if he says, "Don't worry, I will drop $20 by the orphanage on my way home." That's government taxation.

If stealing 100% of the output from a human being is called slavery, at what percentage is it no longer slavery?

 

[tommyjo]

There are 435 members of Congress, 100 Senators and 1 President. THEY can't agree on a budget. How in the hell do you expect over 300 million people to agree?

The terms "confiscate" and "govt thinks it can spend money better than the individual can" are always thrown out on this site.

The income tax has been around since, what 1916 or 1917. That is almost 100 years. Yet you want to post that taxes are taken illegally?

You think the individual has better money sense? That's a crock. Do you see what people spend their money on? Have you seen any of the multitude of studies showing how woefully unprepared US citizens are for retirement? What was the root cause of the last recession? No it wasn't the election of Barack Obama...it was the housing industry and people buying houses they knew they couldn't afford...or people using their homes as an ATM.

Is the govt a great steward of money? No...but your assertion that the individual is a great steward of their own money is just dumb and ignorant of every fact/study that proves otherwise.

Regarding govt spending. What do you think a road costs? What do you think a smart bomb costs? What does it cost Medicare for end of life care, new knees/hips or doctor visits? What does it cost to provide benefits to federal employees, members of the military? What does it cost to inspect dams, bridges, airplanes, etc. What does it cost to educate a kid? What does it cost to catch a thief? What does it cost to regulate a bank or a whole economy? It certainly isn't free.

The people have no concept of budgeting...no concept of economics...no concept of the debt or deficit and how they relate to GDP. (This is proven every day on this site)

Yet, you think the people are qualified to vote on govt spending/revenue issues?

We have real, actual problems in this country. We are spending too much money and not bringing in enough to cover the promises that have been made to ALL citizens.

We have to decide how to fix Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. We have to decide how much defense do we really need (we spend more on defense that the next 17 largest countries combined.)

...you want a new Thomas Johnson bridge, you'll want new knees in your 70s...you'll want your kid to get unemployment payments if they lose their job in a future recession...you want the bad guys of the world to stay away from our shores...you want cars that are safe...you want food that is safe to eat. You want the pride that comes along when the US or a US company discovers or creates something fabulous.

But you don't want to pay one cent towards any of it?

If you actually want to understand the issues we face, turn off Fox News, turn off Glen Beck, ingore Rush Limbaugh...turn off MSNBC and stop reading the Huffington Post.

Read the reports from the CBO, the Treasury and the Federal Reserve...browse Economists View, Economist Club or any of the vast array of wonderful non-politcal economics based websites that are readily available...

 

[PsyOps]

There are 435 members of Congress, 100 Senators and 1 President. THEY can't agree on a budget. How in the hell do you expect over 300 million people to agree?

The terms "confiscate" and "govt thinks it can spend money better than the individual can" are always thrown out on this site.

The income tax has been around since, what 1916 or 1917. That is almost 100 years. Yet you want to post that taxes are taken illegally?

You think the individual has better money sense? That's a crock. Do you see what people spend their money on? Have you seen any of the multitude of studies showing how woefully unprepared US citizens are for retirement? What was the root cause of the last recession? No it wasn't the election of Barack Obama...it was the housing industry and people buying houses they knew they couldn't afford...or people using their homes as an ATM.

Is the govt a great steward of money? No...but your assertion that the individual is a great steward of their own money is just dumb and ignorant of every fact/study that proves otherwise.

The thing you fail to understand is, the money I spend is MY money. The money the government spends is OUR money. The government has a far larger responsibility to be good stewards with other peoples’ money than any individual has with their own.

 

[FreedomFan]

Regarding govt spending. What do you think a road costs? What do you think a smart bomb costs?

Regarding those costs ... where do you think that money comes from?

 

[FreedomFan]

The income tax has been around since, what 1916 or 1917. That is almost 100 years. Yet you want to post that taxes are taken illegally?

16th Amendment is unconstitutional.

 

[kwillia]

The concept of collecting taxes for the betterment of society as a whole in the form of infrastructure makes sense. However, we stopped doing that decades ago. We lost our way when our government was allowed to rob the coffers that were earmarked for specific things to pay for promises they made without having the means to fund them. Let me put it in simple terms...

Let's say I own a dump truck. Bought it brand new and shiny. I work that truck and because I know that at some point 10 years down the line that truck will need an engine overhaul to the tune of 10k plus, I earmark a fund that I put money into year after year in order to cover the expense I know will eventually come. As the years go by and I see that sizable pot of money, I may be tempted to treat myself to a worldly vacation or buy a motorcycle with it... but that would be fiscally irresponsible.

Had we left the original system of collect and earmark in place we would have the money to pay for infrastructure upkeep. Same thing for the money they took from us to "save in a safe place for our future retirement".

We need to get back to a blanced budget. We are expected to do it with our personal finances... why can't we expect it from our government?

 

[ylexot]

16th Amendment is unconstitutional.

As an amendment to the Constitution, it is impossible for it to bee unconstitutional. It is, by definition, constitutional. It may be a bad amendment worthy of repeal, but it is not unconstitutional.

 

[kwillia]

Holy crap... forget my lame example... try this one instead... talk about timely...:kililngme

Unexpected Drop in Medicaid Costs Helps O'Malley Budget, But There's More Borrowing Too - Southern Maryland Headline News

Legislative analysts told lawmakers Monday that Gov. Martin O’Malley’s proposed budget contains a number of fiscally responsible moves they had recommended in previous years and an unexpected $200 million drop in the cost of Medicaid health care. But it also extends for another five years $411 million in borrowing to replace cash from special funds used to finance other programs.

Legislators from the House Appropriations Committee and the Senate Budget and Taxation Committee had the most questions during the 2013 Department of Legislative Services Fiscal Briefing about the transfer from the real estate transfer tax to fund other programs. Over the next five years, $411 million will be shifted to the general fund, replaced with money from 15-year bonds with interest.

“Many of us thought it would be a one-time thing,” said Del. Charles Barkley, D-Montgomery.

It is “a one-time thing five times in a row,” quipped Warren Deschenaux, the legislature’s chief fiscal analyst. “This is one of the major devices to get to where [the governor] got,” reducing the structural deficit while adding to reserves and the rainy day fund.

 

[GURPS]

What do you think a road costs? - shared cost

What do you think a smart bomb costs? - shared cost

What does it cost Medicare for end of life care, new knees/hips or doctor visits? - not my problem

What does it cost to provide benefits to federal employees, members of the military? - shared cost

What does it cost to inspect dams, bridges, airplanes, etc. - shared cost

What does it cost to educate a kid? - Not a Federal Problem

What does it cost to catch a thief? - ?

What does it cost to regulate a bank or a whole economy?



The people have no concept of budgeting (This is proven every day on this site)

Nope in my youth I spend it as fast as it came in, or worked JOB's with no fancy 401's ....... so MY Penalty is to work until I am unable or I die ...



all I know is the Gov. should NOT be borrowing huge sums to pay for entitlements

 

[migtig]

So do you feel the government a thief stealing your money?

Do you know that this discussion, my original post, was the major topic of discussion during the American Revolution? It was discussed at colleges (such as Yale). It was discussed in all the taverns and local pubs. And at that time, this was just about taxes on goods. Their income was not even taxed.

The Revolution was meant to take away the powers of government. To make decisions as a community, as an individual, as to whether or not a road should be built. Remember "states" didn't even exist at the time of the Revolution.

The original constitution limited federal government. We were never meant to be a welfare nation. We were never meant to have a big government and we were never meant to be paying taxes like we are.

Think about it.

 

[GURPS]

So do you feel the government a thief stealing your money? - not that everyone agrees with every program all the time - but yes I do - paying for Police, Fire or National Defense is one thing giving my money to welfare leaches or paying benefits to illegal immigrants

The original constitution limited federal government. We were never meant to be a welfare nation. We were never meant to have a big government and we were never meant to be paying taxes like we are.

Think about it.

we went to war with England over a few % points of taxes ...... we pay aloft more now

 

[SamSpade]

So do you feel the government a thief stealing your money?

Do you know that this discussion, my original post, was the major topic of discussion during the American Revolution? It was discussed at colleges (such as Yale). It was discussed in all the taverns and local pubs. And at that time, this was just about taxes on goods. Their income was not even taxed.

The way I understand the events leading up to the Revolution was that many Americans would have preferred us to remain WITH England, but at least be afforded the same representation and rights as the English did, themselves, in England.

This is why the traditional split of support for the war - one third for, one third against, one third not interested - showed that there simply wasn't this overwhelming hatred of England.

(That oft used stat does not quite tell the picture well, because *geographically*, some whole areas were quite Loyalist and some quite Patriot; the South was more Loyalist, the Northeast more Patriot).

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It wasn't SO much that the taxes we got were oppressive; it's that they were there at all. They were annoying. Try to imagine a world where you have to fill out a form every time you want to buy something and send it to some foreign country. It doesn't cost a lot, but dammit if it isn't annoying. Then you have their soldiers mucking about - and you have to accommodate them at every turn. Then they keep adding taxes - and again - and again. And you pretty much have no say in the matter; you just bend over and take it. You can't do business with anyone but England - so they pretty much decide how much you make. If you read the list of grievances in the Declaration, you can see - *taxes* didn't cause us to rebel. It was the constant harassment and mistreatment of colonists.

I recognize taxes as a necessary evil if you want any sort of government. It's absurd to try and recognize and empower a government and give it no means whatsoever for taxation. The colonists weren't getting anything in return for their taxes. Ostensibly, the largest reason for the taxes was to pay for the Seven Years War in North America, which we call the French-Indian War. The Brits perspective was, it was only right that the colonists pay for something that they received a direct benefit from.

I wonder what might have happened if the Brits allowed colonial representation - but still screwed us anyway?

 

[migtig]

Ostensibly, the largest reason for the taxes was to pay for the Seven Years War in North America, which we call the French-Indian War. The Brits perspective was, it was only right that the colonists pay for something that they received a direct benefit from.

Yes, but the colonists were told not to cross the Appalachian mountains for fear of Indian attacks and that they couldn't be protected. They were told over and over after the war that the Indians were still a threat.

And when fighting the Indians, the Brits didn't listen to colonists who said "Don't wear bright red into the woods." "Don't fight in straight lines". "For craps sake don't form a line where you can be picked off" which the Brits didn't listen too and suffered extremely higher costs.

So the issue was paying for a war that didn't achieve a thing.

Sound familiar at all?

Again, I am using a real documented historical argument here. The similar issues are worth considering.

 

[SamSpade]

The original constitution limited federal government. We were never meant to be a welfare nation. We were never meant to have a big government and we were never meant to be paying taxes like we are.

Somehow the nation did quite well without an income tax at all, for many years.

And again did quite well with marginal tax rates as low as 1-7% the first year or so.

My uneducated guess was over time, the federal government found that they could keep tapping that well indefinitely, whereas previously without income tax, they were constrained by how much revenue they could reasonably collect from tariffs.

 

[SamSpade]

Yes, but the colonists were told not to cross the Appalachian mountains for fear of Indian attacks and that they couldn't be protected. They were told over and over after the war that the Indians were still a threat.

??

Prior to the French-Indian War - all that land past the Appalachians WAS French. So, yeah, Indians. But it also wasn't British territory, either.

After the war, the colonies extended all the way to the Mississippi.

 

[JoeRider]

we went to war with England over a few % points of taxes ...... we pay aloft more now

Well to really understand the complexity of it all, you really need to do a lot of reading.

Federalist Papers 30-36 deal with taxation.

Federalist Papers Index

In a nutshell, Hamilton seems to think that taxes should be used for things that the states alone can not provide. Example - the military.

There is a gray area in the mix coming from the "Implied Powers"

Hamilton view of implied powers on the First Bank


Avalon Project - Hamilton's Opinion as to the Constitutionality of the Bank of the United States : 1791

and Jefferson view of Implied Powers on the First Bank

Jefferson's Letter to Washington on the Bank of the United States


I think there is an economic interest for taxes to support the states and individuals. This includes the protection of self and property from a state and federal level. Things that preserver the Union would obvious things requiring support. Washington believed in educational systems. I think in many cases it is a matter of how we are managing things verses the actually thing provided.

 

[dontknowwhy]

You think the individual has better money sense? That's a crock. Do you see what people spend their money on? Have you seen any of the multitude of studies showing how woefully unprepared US citizens are for retirement? What was the root cause of the last recession? No it wasn't the election of Barack Obama...it was the housing industry and people buying houses they knew they couldn't afford...or people using their homes as an ATM.

Is the govt a great steward of money? No...but your assertion that the individual is a great steward of their own money is just dumb and ignorant of every fact/study that proves otherwise.

Regarding govt spending. What do you think a road costs? What do you think a smart bomb costs? What does it cost Medicare for end of life care, new knees/hips or doctor visits? What does it cost to provide benefits to federal employees, members of the military? What does it cost to inspect dams, bridges, airplanes, etc. What does it cost to educate a kid? What does it cost to catch a thief? What does it cost to regulate a bank or a whole economy? It certainly isn't free.

The people have no concept of budgeting...no concept of economics...no concept of the debt or deficit and how they relate to GDP. (This is proven every day on this site)
Yet, you think the people are qualified to vote on govt spending/revenue issues?

We have real, actual problems in this country. We are spending too much money and not bringing in enough to cover the promises that have been made to ALL citizens.

We have to decide how to fix Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. We have to decide how much defense do we really need (we spend more on defense that the next 17 largest countries combined.)

...you want a new Thomas Johnson bridge, you'll want new knees in your 70s...you'll want your kid to get unemployment payments if they lose their job in a future recession...you want the bad guys of the world to stay away from our shores...you want cars that are safe...you want food that is safe to eat. You want the pride that comes along when the US or a US company discovers or creates something fabulous.

QUOTE]

such a disturbed little liberal you are, Mrs. Pelosi..