StoneThrower
New Member
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/u3U8wGh2oqc?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Why the regulative principle in worship
- Thread starter StoneThrower
- Start date
onel0126
Bead mumbler
I have posted this before. This video contains the words from a historical document from 155AD. It describes worship at that time a mere one generation removed form the apostles.
http://youtu.be/2J_bamuM_4k
http://youtu.be/2J_bamuM_4k
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
Okay - I usually don't post in here, but feel the need to at least do one thing with this post. My belief is that I encounter or approach the Lord in more than one way. My private conversations with Him happen as needed, at any time. This is a type of communion with Him, a sharing of love which I think is as unique as fingerprints - meaning that it differs from person to person. There is little structure in the expressions of the heart with complete honesty, when it's just "me and God."
Separately from that is the formal and public gathering of people in a worship ceremony. A worship ceremony should serve a number of purposes - chiefly praising God and declaring His glory, but also to be edified by the life lessons found in Scripture and in sharing each others' experiences. The latter is a crucial function of the church fellowship, I think, which I think is why we should seek a fellowship and join in it.
One of the distressing characteristics of man's reaction to the Gospel is the interpretation of Scripture and development of doctrine. Well-intentioned, to be sure, but all have erred in implementing doctrine in one way or another. We are imperfect, and that imperfection has caused the divisive influences which have fragmented Christ's church. No wonder so many thinking people reject formally established "religion."
The thinking which some factions have had throughout history, which goes something like, "We're right and everyone else is going to hell," has polarized people and destroyed the unity which so many of us seek; it has chased people away from church doors; it has emptied pews and even caused some people to tragically commit suicide. The liturgy and pomp and circumstance added by men (misguided and otherwise) have distracted the focus from God and instead steered the focus to pretty (and also petty) things and self-righteousness.
I think - no, I KNOW - God is best sought and confided in when alone with Him. I value my time alone with Him much more highly than I value a formal worship service or a labeled denomination of church. I need the fellowship of a church to escape from my own dysfunctions and to learn more from varying perspectives, but the core of my relationship with God has little to do with the name on the sign or the decorations inside a building or the customs which are observed in the course of a formal service.
Regulation of worship demands careful consultation of the Scriptures, to be sure, but because we color everything as a result of our personalities and agendas, interpretation of a scripture which has already been interpreted from its original language is beyond our own abilities. It takes Divine guidance to "get it right," and even then, the way we interpret and act on what we receive should be questioned again and again.
Separately from that is the formal and public gathering of people in a worship ceremony. A worship ceremony should serve a number of purposes - chiefly praising God and declaring His glory, but also to be edified by the life lessons found in Scripture and in sharing each others' experiences. The latter is a crucial function of the church fellowship, I think, which I think is why we should seek a fellowship and join in it.
One of the distressing characteristics of man's reaction to the Gospel is the interpretation of Scripture and development of doctrine. Well-intentioned, to be sure, but all have erred in implementing doctrine in one way or another. We are imperfect, and that imperfection has caused the divisive influences which have fragmented Christ's church. No wonder so many thinking people reject formally established "religion."
The thinking which some factions have had throughout history, which goes something like, "We're right and everyone else is going to hell," has polarized people and destroyed the unity which so many of us seek; it has chased people away from church doors; it has emptied pews and even caused some people to tragically commit suicide. The liturgy and pomp and circumstance added by men (misguided and otherwise) have distracted the focus from God and instead steered the focus to pretty (and also petty) things and self-righteousness.
I think - no, I KNOW - God is best sought and confided in when alone with Him. I value my time alone with Him much more highly than I value a formal worship service or a labeled denomination of church. I need the fellowship of a church to escape from my own dysfunctions and to learn more from varying perspectives, but the core of my relationship with God has little to do with the name on the sign or the decorations inside a building or the customs which are observed in the course of a formal service.
Regulation of worship demands careful consultation of the Scriptures, to be sure, but because we color everything as a result of our personalities and agendas, interpretation of a scripture which has already been interpreted from its original language is beyond our own abilities. It takes Divine guidance to "get it right," and even then, the way we interpret and act on what we receive should be questioned again and again.
A man is at his tallest when he is on his knees before God, for sure.
I'll take Matthew, Mark, Luke and John over Jerry Johnson anyday.
He keeps acting like the Bible was written in the 1500's.
Do you notice how all the Strip Mall preachers start off condemning the Catholic Church even if sublimely?
If I decide to leave the Catholic Church someone has to give me guidance as to which of the 100's of Evangelical/Baptist and Strip Mall churches is truly preaching the "truth" within a 20 mile radius of my home.
I do not need to be reminded of the Protestant Reformation, I am not uneducated in that time period, but even then there were hundreds of "reformers" and none of them got it completely right.
He keeps acting like the Bible was written in the 1500's.
Do you notice how all the Strip Mall preachers start off condemning the Catholic Church even if sublimely?
If I decide to leave the Catholic Church someone has to give me guidance as to which of the 100's of Evangelical/Baptist and Strip Mall churches is truly preaching the "truth" within a 20 mile radius of my home.
I do not need to be reminded of the Protestant Reformation, I am not uneducated in that time period, but even then there were hundreds of "reformers" and none of them got it completely right.
Radiant1
Soul Probe
Oh good grief. I only had to watch the first four minutes of this vid before shutting it down. Regulative principle you say? Sure thing! The Mass can be found in the book of Revelations.
Scripture Catholic - REVELATION AND THE HOLY MASS
Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven's identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church's identification on earth.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as "alter Christuses" (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests ("presbyteroi") in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus' eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8 - heaven's liturgical chant "Holy, Holy, Holy" is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God's word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven's description of Jesus as the "Lamb" is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven's emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven's concluding liturgical prayer "Amen" is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church's tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.
Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross ("tau") in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God's family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.
Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 11:12 - the phrase "come up here" is similar to the priest's charge to "lift up your hearts" at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven's emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:7 - heaven's emphasis on the Archangel Michael's intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ's sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the "Gloria" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven's marriage supper is the same as the Lamb's supper in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the "Alleluia" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth
Side note -- Jesus (who didn't have the human lineage to be a Levitical priest btw), as are Catholic priests, are priests of the order of Melchizedek. Protestants have need to be careful for if they condemn the Catholic order of priesthood, they are also condemning Christ's. To claim that Catholic priests stem from the Levitical priesthood and develop an entire polemic against it is the epitome of a straw man argument, it's not only a farce but an outright lie.
Scripture Catholic - REVELATION AND THE HOLY MASS
Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven's identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church's identification on earth.
Rev. 1:10 - John witnesses the heavenly liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, which is a Catholic holy day of obligation for attending Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
Rev. 1:13 - Jesus is clothed as High Priest. Our priests also clothe themselves as "alter Christuses" (other Christs) in offering His sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 1:13, 4:4, 6:11, 7:9, 15:6, 19:13-14 - priests wear special vestments in heaven. Our priests also wear special vestments in celebrating the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:5,16,21; 3:3; 16:11 - there is a penitential rite in heaven which is also part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests ("presbyteroi") in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus' eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8 - heaven's liturgical chant "Holy, Holy, Holy" is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 4:8-11, 5:9-14, 7:10-12, 18:1-8 - the various antiphonal chants in the heavenly liturgy are similar to those used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:1 - there is a book or scroll of God's word in heaven. This is reflected in the Liturgy of the Word at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:6 and throughout - heaven's description of Jesus as the "Lamb" is the same as the description of Jesus as the Lamb of God in the Eucharistic liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven's emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:14; 7:12; 19:4 - heaven's concluding liturgical prayer "Amen" is the same as is used at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church's tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars.
Rev. 7:3, 14:1, 22:4 - there is the sign of the cross ("tau") in heaven. This sign is used during the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God's family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.
Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 11:12 - the phrase "come up here" is similar to the priest's charge to "lift up your hearts" at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven's emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 12:7 - heaven's emphasis on the Archangel Michael's intercession is the same as the concluding prayers at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ's sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:3-4 - there is the recitation of the "Gloria" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 17, 19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven's marriage supper is the same as the Lamb's supper in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 19:1,3,4,6 - there is the recitation of the "Alleluia" in heaven. This is also recited at the Holy Mass on earth
Side note -- Jesus (who didn't have the human lineage to be a Levitical priest btw), as are Catholic priests, are priests of the order of Melchizedek. Protestants have need to be careful for if they condemn the Catholic order of priesthood, they are also condemning Christ's. To claim that Catholic priests stem from the Levitical priesthood and develop an entire polemic against it is the epitome of a straw man argument, it's not only a farce but an outright lie.
hotcoffee
New Member
Ok... this one has gone far enough without a real Protestant's voice....
Contrary to popular belief... Protestants are Baptized by the Holy Spirit just as you are.
Are you going to scribble in this forum that the Protestant Preachers are not ordained by God?
A substantial portion of the mission of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ was with the Gentiles.
The church is just a building. The people are the congregation. God didn't need a temple when David was King. They did just fine....
Not all of the "ordained" priests were all that great you know. What about the levitical family that were swallowed whole by the sand when they got too far out of hand.
Catholics should be careful how they speak about Protestants as well. Religion is a personal decision. People stand up for that freedom.... along with freedom of speech.
Last edited:
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
The point I was trying to make is that, regardless of man-made labels and doctrine, we should have a relationship with Him - a very personal relationship, pursued one-on-God in private. That is SO much more important than the reformation, the Pope, the priests, the lineage, the edicts and the decorations, etc. I think I've seen the light of the indwelling Spirit shining in faces of Catholics, Protestants, and Messianic Jews, asked them about our Lord, and got the same kind of joyful answer every time. My senses are faulty and so are my perceptions, but I've seen nothing to indicate that a man-made division is going to keep a Believer from embracing our Lord. And it really is all about the relationship isn't it? Someday all the trappings of this world will be not only gone but also forgotten. I can't wait for our Lord to "make all things new."
Radiant1
Soul Probe
Ok. I don't see anyone denying that. Btw, what constitutes a "real" Protestant?
Never have and don't plan to.
Yes, and?
I believe Church is both a body of believers and the places in which they congregate; both/and, not either/or.
Not all Christians are period. What's your point?
If you want to say that someone is free to spread falsehood, then so be it, but I'm then free to call that someone out on it, right? Sure, religion is a personal decision, so I would expect that Protestants stick to their beliefs and leave Catholics to theirs. :coughcoughahem:
Your whole response has confused me. I posted in response to the first four minutes of OP vid. Why are you having this reaction?
I don't think anyone disagrees with you. Just because someone worships in a formal manner or chooses to follow particular doctrines doesn't mean they don't have a personal relationship with Christ. Both are beneficial to one's spiritual life, yes? You're certainly not implying that Catholics don't have a personal relationship with God, are you?
Keep in mind, from the first four minutes of that vid I discerned it wasn't worth watching all the way through due to the falsehood and subsequent polemic already present. Perhaps I missed something that you and Hotcoffee are responding to?
StoneThrower
New Member
Missing the point
Making this about Romanism misses the point entirely.
The regulative principle says that if scripture doesn't say its ok, you don't do it, period.
The normative principle says that if scripture doesn't prohibit it, than anything goes.
Who gets to determine whats pleasing to God?
In Leviticus God spells it out clearly, but Hebrews tell us we are no longer under Levitical law, and that the priest, and sacrificial system are idolatry if continued and nothing more than ritual. So what defines acceptable corporate worship in the new covenant?
The protestant church needs to figure this out as well, as Jerry mentioned when the video started.
Since ones acceptable service unto God is your obedience and your worship its kind of important.
Making this about Romanism misses the point entirely.
The regulative principle says that if scripture doesn't say its ok, you don't do it, period.
The normative principle says that if scripture doesn't prohibit it, than anything goes.
Who gets to determine whats pleasing to God?
In Leviticus God spells it out clearly, but Hebrews tell us we are no longer under Levitical law, and that the priest, and sacrificial system are idolatry if continued and nothing more than ritual. So what defines acceptable corporate worship in the new covenant?
The protestant church needs to figure this out as well, as Jerry mentioned when the video started.
Since ones acceptable service unto God is your obedience and your worship its kind of important.
hotcoffee
New Member
I meant to go back and change the word real to protesting which would make me a protesting Protestant.
I got really upset when I saw the phrase "Jesus (who didn't have the human lineage to be a Levitical priest btw), "
It seemed to me that the message is that "the Preachers in our churches are not ordained". It seemed to me that the message is that if we're not catholic we're not Christians.
So.... that's why I'm upset.... I usually stay out of the catholic vs. everyone else arguments. But the quote "Jesus (who didn't have the human lineage to be a Levitical priest btw), " just got to me....
Radiant1
Soul Probe
That's ironic because I don't think the "regulative principle" is in scripture. And if it wasn't about "Romanism" (a tanked up work if ever there was one), then why mention it at all? Why not use the general term "Christians"? In addition, since neither Catholic ordination or Protestant ordinations are Levitical and the Catholic Mass at least is found in the New Testament, then this man's point was only to stab a strawman and an exercise in futility. In other words, pointless hubris.
Come on hotcoffee, you should have known better. I don't recall a Catholic ever saying Protestants weren't Christians because we believe you are. It's Protestants who attempt to determine who is or isn't, even their own fellow Protestants, saying things such as "true Christian" or, "Your God is not my God" etc and generally pointing fingers at everyone else, which this video kind of attests to.
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
Okay, try this on for size: Holy Spirit-guided worship is powerful and wonderful, and it doesn't take a Bible scholar to recognize it when it happens. Many of us have experienced times in church when the Holy Spirit was definitely in active attendance, working His wonders in the hearts of almost everyone in the room. When this happens, even the liturgical things seem more precious and are definitely more heartfelt. The precondition for this isn't a heartfelt desire to comply with restrictions, but instead a heartfelt desire to praise and worship our Lord and Savior.
Who are we, that we seek to restrict or channel the ways in which we express our love for the Lord, an act which is done using the gifts He's given us to do so?
Perhaps the real issue behind the "regulative" stuff is reverence. Just now I have two images in mind, the one being the very structured and controlled worship service one encounters in Catholic and Anglican churches, the other being the dancing and singing of less structured churches. There is reverence in the heart and reverence external to the heart, I think. Both the structured and unstructured practices seek to revere and honor and celebrate our Lord and the gifts He has given us. Those who love Him and have accepted His gift of salvation will be united in Heaven with Him, and on this we all agree (or at least, I hope we do).
Am I wrong in my view on this topic? My heart tells me I'm not, but perhaps we need a discussion on reverence to understand where we all are with respect to the "regulative principle."
Who are we, that we seek to restrict or channel the ways in which we express our love for the Lord, an act which is done using the gifts He's given us to do so?
Perhaps the real issue behind the "regulative" stuff is reverence. Just now I have two images in mind, the one being the very structured and controlled worship service one encounters in Catholic and Anglican churches, the other being the dancing and singing of less structured churches. There is reverence in the heart and reverence external to the heart, I think. Both the structured and unstructured practices seek to revere and honor and celebrate our Lord and the gifts He has given us. Those who love Him and have accepted His gift of salvation will be united in Heaven with Him, and on this we all agree (or at least, I hope we do).
Am I wrong in my view on this topic? My heart tells me I'm not, but perhaps we need a discussion on reverence to understand where we all are with respect to the "regulative principle."
StoneThrower
New Member
I meant to go back and change the word real to protesting which would make me a protesting Protestant.
I got really upset when I saw the phrase "Jesus (who didn't have the human lineage to be a Levitical priest btw), "
It seemed to me that the message is that "the Preachers in our churches are not ordained". It seemed to me that the message is that if we're not catholic we're not Christians.
So.... that's why I'm upset.... I usually stay out of the catholic vs. everyone else arguments. But the quote "Jesus (who didn't have the human lineage to be a Levitical priest btw), " just got to me....
Too bad you wouldnt be in Sunday School this morning I am teaching on that Hebrews chapter 7 Its a good thing!
hotcoffee
New Member
So this should strike some people funny.... or peculiar....
So I went to the brick and mortar again this morning. The room was filled with children and parents..... and no doubt grandparents... That's a good feeling... know what I mean?
And then they started talking about the Temple and how there are parts of the Temple that would help us see the scriptures better.
Well that brought back the different churches that I've been to..... and I must admit... the Temple is important...
People can find a church by the Cross on it. Inside there are books and media and people who will offer you a smile and offer you their friendship. It's a good place to be....
So... I take it back... the Building is important....
I still say the congregation is key as well.... Is God in your church?
So I went to the brick and mortar again this morning. The room was filled with children and parents..... and no doubt grandparents... That's a good feeling... know what I mean?
And then they started talking about the Temple and how there are parts of the Temple that would help us see the scriptures better.
Well that brought back the different churches that I've been to..... and I must admit... the Temple is important...
People can find a church by the Cross on it. Inside there are books and media and people who will offer you a smile and offer you their friendship. It's a good place to be....
So... I take it back... the Building is important....
I still say the congregation is key as well.... Is God in your church?
Railroad
Routinely Derailed
So this should strike some people funny.... or peculiar....
So I went to the brick and mortar again this morning. The room was filled with children and parents..... and no doubt grandparents... That's a good feeling... know what I mean?
And then they started talking about the Temple and how there are parts of the Temple that would help us see the scriptures better.
Well that brought back the different churches that I've been to..... and I must admit... the Temple is important...
People can find a church by the Cross on it. Inside there are books and media and people who will offer you a smile and offer you their friendship. It's a good place to be....
So... I take it back... the Building is important....
I still say the congregation is key as well.... Is God in your church?
"For wherever two or more (or three) are gathered together in My name, there I am also." Matthew 18:20
Zguy28
New Member
Hey Bird dog.
Unfortunately its not the humble opinion of your church. Just read the canon's of the Council of Trent and see what it says about us Protestants. A fundamental doctrine of the faith is that we are justified before God (declared righteous) by faith alone, not by works. If you don't believe me, read Galatians for yourself and decide.
The council of Trent canons say if I believe that, I am to be anathema to you. It also says that if I believe that good works are merely a fruit of Justification by faith, and don't contribute some form of merit to it, then I am anathema.
Does your church canon jive with your opinion friend?
Hey Bird dog.
Unfortunately its not the humble opinion of your church. Just read the canon's of the Council of Trent and see what it says about us Protestants. A fundamental doctrine of the faith is that we are justified before God (declared righteous) by faith alone, not by works. If you don't believe me, read Galatians for yourself and decide.
The council of Trent canons say if I believe that, I am to be anathema to you. It also says that if I believe that good works are merely a fruit of Justification by faith, and don't contribute some form of merit to it, then I am anathema.
Does your church canon jive with your opinion friend?
Mathew 25:40
You Protestants also get too stuck on Saint Paul.
He did not start the Catholic Church. Jesus did.
and.......................for good works, I am sure you are familiar with
Matthew 25:40
I am not in the same league with you or Radiant1 in the Biblical debate, but I have found the Catholic Church to be open to all. This not the 1500's. Time for Protestants to get over it and quit baiting Catholics on forums like this. Good "honest" debate and discussion are OK, but we have already been through
Starmann and ItalianScallion and others.
It just seems it is B23 and Stone's turn.
You seem to possess spiritual and intellectual honesty, the others don't.
Hotcoffee should be your first example
StoneThrower
New Member
Actually I miss starman and I am not looking for opportunities I am just not letting any go by, Notice the threads are about other things but it just keeps popping up. I have a couple of books in here I would like to discus with you but I don't have the time,
one was The Ins and outs of Romanism 1949 by Joseph Zacchello
I just dropping in to kill a few minutes here and there dont worry I plan to disappear again soon.
