On atheists

[ObscureRefMan]

Hi all,

This is my first post, so I just thought I'd introduce myself... I came to this forum to learn about stuff happening in the area. I'm a recent (2011) transplant from New York, and life here in MD is a little... slower. But I'm adjusting nicely.

After perusing the various sub-forums for a while, I came across "Religion". And that's when I felt I had to say something.

I have seen a few posts/responses that are somewhat critical of atheists. Nothing horrible, but they have contained inaccuracies. I am an atheist. Am I a "typical" atheist? Who knows. Different atheists believe different things (same for Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.). In fact, I'd suggest that most atheists share a lot of beliefs with most Christians. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, to clarify, there are two major misconceptions I think people have.

1. Atheists say (something like) "There is no God, and I know this for a fact". There are very few atheists who say anything like this. And no atheist I know of (either personally, or by reputation) has ever said this. In fact, if someone did, I would argue that he could not justify such a position, and further, that he would have the "burden of proof" to provide evidence of such a claim. The closest I've ever heard is, "I believe there are no gods." But mostly, it's just "I do not believe there are gods". (There is a very subtle, but important epistemological difference between those two statements.)

2. Atheists are out to remove religion from public life. This is simply not true. Some atheists are very vocally in their criticisms of religion. But most atheists I know are pretty much indifferent to religion overall. And none want to see it "banned".

There are more, but these were the two biggies. (If others crop up, be assured I will address them.)

By the way, if anyone is interested in what one particular atheist (that is, me) thinks, please feel free to ask. I'm not shy, I rarely get offended, and would love to help clear up any atheist misconceptions people might have.

I look forward to some interesting discussions. Thanks!

 

[LostNFound]

I look forward to some interesting discussions. Thanks!

Will be interesting to see any and all responses. Id assume you know about The Thinking Atheist? (on FB and blog) Very interesting debates go on over there.

Personally I find forums are 1 of 2 things- either we all agree- so little learning and debating - maybe a lot of cool info and connections to other like minded folks and thats cool- or they all disagree and resort to name calling rather than talk facts.

I'll admit- I back away from most religious discussions because I know damn well I wont change any minds that have been indoctrinated from birth with whatever it is they were fed. Also few fight with facts - just what they learned to say in defence of their god.

What I have personally found extremely interesting are atheists who found their way to atheism and left a life of religion. Raised one way- asked many questions, researched and came to believe another. And yes, believing there is no god is a way of life if you will - not a religion.

Welcome - not that Im the welcoming committee or post a lot - but I give you credit for giving this a try. I look forward to more of your posts if you decide to stick around.

If nothing else - you've got balls- but you did say you're a NYer- so no surprise to me.

 

[Radiant1]

I'm not shy, I rarely get offended...

Well, that's good. Welcome to the forums!

 

[vraiblonde]

1. Atheists say (something like) "There is no God, and I know this for a fact". There are very few atheists who say anything like this.

I do

It is not my burden to believe something until disproven - typically I'm big on not believing until it's shown to be true, or at least there is reliable evidence.

I also don't want to sit around with other atheists and talk about what we don't believe in. That's ridiculous. If other people want to believe in God, that's no skin off me and I'm not going to argue with them about it because they're not hurting me. Their crosses or prayers or nativities or Merry Christmases do not bother me in the slightest. Even when they are on public property.

I fail to understand why atheists are so threatened by Christians and other religious types. So there's another misconception perpetrated by the crazy activists: that atheists are all hostile toward religion. My observation, like yours, is that most are indifferent.

 

[cheezgrits]

Welcome! Glad to have you and you'll find this interesting. Eventually you'll be condemned to hell by a few on here, but it can be fun. If you question some folks' beliefs, even in a nice way, they will crank you down for the rest of time.

Me personally, I'm a Cherokee, tried to educate some on my beliefs, most were nice and I think Radiant, hotcoffee and a few others actually asked some great questions.

On the other hand, I got called a cannibal, so there is a balance here! lol

 

[MarieB]

Hi all,

This is my first post, so I just thought I'd introduce myself... I came to this forum to learn about stuff happening in the area. I'm a recent (2011) transplant from New York, and life here in MD is a little... slower. But I'm adjusting nicely.

After perusing the various sub-forums for a while, I came across "Religion". And that's when I felt I had to say something.

I have seen a few posts/responses that are somewhat critical of atheists. Nothing horrible, but they have contained inaccuracies. I am an atheist. Am I a "typical" atheist? Who knows. Different atheists believe different things (same for Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc.). In fact, I'd suggest that most atheists share a lot of beliefs with most Christians. But that's a topic for another thread.

Anyway, to clarify, there are two major misconceptions I think people have.

1. Atheists say (something like) "There is no God, and I know this for a fact". There are very few atheists who say anything like this. And no atheist I know of (either personally, or by reputation) has ever said this. In fact, if someone did, I would argue that he could not justify such a position, and further, that he would have the "burden of proof" to provide evidence of such a claim. The closest I've ever heard is, "I believe there are no gods." But mostly, it's just "I do not believe there are gods". (There is a very subtle, but important epistemological difference between those two statements.)

2. Atheists are out to remove religion from public life. This is simply not true. Some atheists are very vocally in their criticisms of religion. But most atheists I know are pretty much indifferent to religion overall. And none want to see it "banned".

There are more, but these were the two biggies. (If others crop up, be assured I will address them.)

By the way, if anyone is interested in what one particular atheist (that is, me) thinks, please feel free to ask. I'm not shy, I rarely get offended, and would love to help clear up any atheist misconceptions people might have.

I look forward to some interesting discussions. Thanks!

It sounds like to me that you are walking the line between being an Atheist and an Agnostic

 

[CrashTest]

Atheists spend more time and effort focusing on their faith in nothing than people who have faith in God spend focusing on God. You might actually say their faith in nothing is kinda like a religion.

 

[Zguy28]

Welcome! Glad to have you and you'll find this interesting. Eventually you'll be condemned to hell by a few on here, but it can be fun. If you question some folks' beliefs, even in a nice way, they will crank you down for the rest of time.

Me personally, I'm a Cherokee, tried to educate some on my beliefs, most were nice and I think Radiant, hotcoffee and a few others actually asked some great questions.

On the other hand, I got called a cannibal, so there is a balance here! lol

Who called you a cannibal? LOL.

Oh, and yes, welcome to the forums!

 

[ObscureRefMan]

It is not my burden to believe something until disproven - typically I'm big on not believing until it's shown to be true, or at least there is reliable evidence.

Not sure quite of what you're saying in the first part - your "burden to believe". I don't think we have a burden to believe. We believe for different reasons. Some beliefs are carefully examined, others not. But overall, I agree with you. Believe if there is evidence.

I also don't want to sit around with other atheists and talk about what we don't believe in.

Ditto. But when I am surrounded by believers, it's good to know there are others out there who think like I do.

Their crosses or prayers or nativities or Merry Christmases do not bother me in the slightest. Even when they are on public property.

Again, ditto. If someone wants to pray in school or before a town council meeting, fine. But it shouldn't mandatory for everyone to do so.

I fail to understand why atheists are so threatened by Christians and other religious types. So there's another misconception perpetrated by the crazy activists: that atheists are all hostile toward religion. My observation, like yours, is that most are indifferent.

I don't know of any atheists who are threatened by religious types.

 

[ObscureRefMan]

It sounds like to me that you are walking the line between being an Atheist and an Agnostic

I hate to be pedantic, but a quick clarification is needed here.

Atheist/agnostic is not an either/or thing. Atheism has to do with belief; agnosticism has to do with knowledge. So, technically, I am both an atheist (I do not believe any gods exist), and an agnostic (I do not know any gods exist).

 

[Railroad]

Welcome, ORM. Keep reading and posting!

 

[ObscureRefMan]

Atheists spend more time and effort focusing on their faith in nothing than people who have faith in God spend focusing on God. You might actually say their faith in nothing is kinda like a religion.

I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't know of any atheists who spend time "focusing on their faith". Like I said before, most atheists that I know are completely indifferent to religion. And the "activist" ones don't spend any time focusing on their faith, but rather spend time trying to; clarify misconceptions, railing against discrimination against non-believers, etc.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that atheists do not have ANY "faith". (Where faith is defined as; belief in something without reason.) I will freely admit not having faith in anything.

 

[ObscureRefMan]

Oh, and thanks for all the welcomes!

 

[PsyOps]

I hate to be pedantic, but a quick clarification is needed here.

Atheist/agnostic is not an either/or thing. Atheism has to do with belief; agnosticism has to do with knowledge. So, technically, I am both an atheist (I do not believe any gods exist), and an agnostic (I do not know any gods exist).

"I do not believe any gods exist"

"I do not know any gods exist"

Sounds pretty conflicted to me.

Do you mean "I don't know IF any gods exist" or "I don't know OF any gods that exist"?

 

[ObscureRefMan]

"I do not believe any gods exist"

"I do not know any gods exist"

Sounds pretty conflicted to me.

Do you mean "I don't know IF any gods exist" or "I don't know OF any gods that exist"?

I agree, it does seem a bit conflicted. Probably because there is a difference between "belief" and "knowledge". (Getting very epistemological now.)

But I don't see any conflict between saying "I don't believe any gods exist" and "I do not know any gods exist". Probably because I (mostly) agree with the statement that you can't prove a negative. There could be a god whose existence I am not aware of. For example the god of deists - one who created the universe, but has no interaction with us (i.e. not the personal god of many Christians). I would not claim that I know this god does not exist. But I will claim that I don't believe he exists.

Does that make sense?

 

[Toxick]

Not sure quite of what you're saying in the first part - your "burden to believe". I don't think we have a burden to believe.

I think it has to do with the scientific and logical axiom that you cannot (and should not) prove a negative. Specifically, the lack of God's existence should scientifically and logically be taken as a given by default until proven otherwise.

Oftentimes Christians ignore this bit of logical groundwork when debating atheists, invariably culminating in the Grand Argument that "You can't prove that God doesn't exist".

Verilblonde's response as indicated above indicates the burden of proof (viz. the burden of belief) does not lie with her, but rather upon the one claiming the positive. Or in short: It's not my obligation to believe it, until you meet your obligation to prove it.

I don't know of any atheists who are threatened by religious types.

I do. They will say they are not, however the voracity I usually see atheists go after Christians is indicative of some kind of insecurity or perceived threat. I've seen it here. An atheist will ask a Christian point-blank "do you think I'm going to hell because I'm an atheist?" And when the Christian unsurprisingly answers, "Well, yeah - that's kind of a central tenet to my religion" the fun begins.

If there was really no threat perceived, an atheist would respond in a similar manner as an adult who was just told by a child that Santa wasn't bringing them anything for Christmas.


I've only seen that response by an atheist about three times in my life. More often, the ensuing discussion is peppered with assertions that religion is a crutch for the weak-minded, and with laments for the hellbound.

 

[vraiblonde]

But when I am surrounded by believers, it's good to know there are others out there who think like I do.

I long ago gave up hope that there is anyone out there who thinks like I do.

If someone wants to pray in school or before a town council meeting, fine. But it shouldn't mandatory for everyone to do so.

I've never encountered a situation where it was mandatory for me to pray. However, I've been to church for various reasons and I'm completely okay with bowing my head during prayer out of respect for the parishioners.

I don't know of any atheists who are threatened by religious types.

And yet we see them all the time, ranting about "under God" in the Pledge; having fits about the Ten Commandments; outraged that someone dared to wish them Merry Christmas. There is no other reason for them to be so upset other than that they feel threatened.

 

[Bird Dog]

No debate is needed on what atheists believe, it is all here live on the Internet

American Atheists | Home

 

[Zguy28]

I'm not sure what you mean.

I don't know of any atheists who spend time "focusing on their faith". Like I said before, most atheists that I know are completely indifferent to religion. And the "activist" ones don't spend any time focusing on their faith, but rather spend time trying to; clarify misconceptions, railing against discrimination against non-believers, etc.

Where would you classify Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennet and those like them?

In fact, I'd go so far as to say that atheists do not have ANY "faith". (Where faith is defined as; belief in something without reason.) I will freely admit not having faith in anything.

We all have faith in something. Are you married or in a significant relationship?

 

[PJay]

No debate is needed on what atheists believe, it is all here live on the Internet

American Atheists | Home

Why do atheists post in a religion forum? It truly puzzles me......