Woman Marine wants 2nd Chance at Officers Infantry Course

[itsrequired]

She stated she was set up to fail, and makes a good point. I say give her a second chance.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-p...usmc-s-most-grueling-test-223033894.html?vp=1

 

[MMM_donuts]

I am interested to read any opposing viewpoints on this because I think she makes some great points. She's asking to be held to the same standards as the men and to be given the same opportunities.

I like the calmness in her response to the controversy that her statements have created.

 

[SG_Player1974]

I say let her do it... especially if the men get a second chance. Let her have the exact same training regimine as the men.

Same standards, same treatment, etc. If she can make it.... so be it! Just dont go running back and writing an op-ed if you fail again.

 

[Lurk]

I disagree that she was set up to fail. As she said in another interview, she didn't know what to expect and was not well prepared. She still does not know what to expect for those portions of the test beyond the point where she withdrew. I would hope she is given sufficient time to prepare and develop the necessary strength and skills needed to meet those challenges she has already seen and to have some hope for those she has not yet seen. It's interesting that she said that though she was now allowed a second attempt she did not wish to do it in an interview a week ago. I wonder what has happened to change her mind.

 

[Larry Gude]

I am interested to read any opposing viewpoints on this because I think she makes some great points. She's asking to be held to the same standards as the men and to be given the same opportunities.

I like the calmness in her response to the controversy that her statements have created.

The Marines did a report on this. I can't find the link but, I am sure someone on here knows where to find it. And the issue is not whether women can pass, though that seems highly unlikely. It is the destruction of their bodies preparing to pass and the wear and tear once they do. Compared to the break down of men, women's bodies simply wear out a good bit sooner and simply can't handle the same abuse as well. Knees and other joints. Muscle tears, ligament damage. I wish I could recall some of the results but, it is devastating, the serious injury level.

There is never going to be a female SEAL or Green Beret or Ranger unless they change the rules. There is never going to be a female competing in MMA against men. Or boxing or wrestling at elite levels. Or marathon or sprinting or weight lifting or basketball or hockey or baseball or anything physical. It's not that woman can't fight or run or lift or shoot or hit or stab or kick. It's that they can't compete, physically, at elite levels and it has nothing to do with skill or heart or smarts or courage. And they may well make excellent soldiers in other areas and maybe that is where this needs to go?

Something like half of women, at the end of Marine boot camp, can't do 3 pull ups and upper body strength seems to be one of the big performance issues. But, half can so, they CAN do it. However, for men, it's 1% that can't do 3. There's just a big physical difference. And, well, that's a big part of soldiering. :shrug:

 

[Bann]

I listened to her interview and read the printed article (same info).

I understand *what she is saying - that the females are not trained the same way as males, and she feels that is the reason they cannot perform to the same standards in this test, which she says should not be changed. Changing the way in which women are trained could make a difference - it makes sense. However, as has been said - I do not think women, as a group, will be able to perform to the same standards as men. Like Larry said, women's bodies are just physiologically different from men. Of course, there are some women who can - although none have passed that MC Infantry Course, yet. Personally, I am not against them being given the chance, (with or without "different" training methods) although I am pretty sure not many women will make it and I am definitely not in favor of them changing the standards. At all.

Just as an observation - I don't think the Second Lt. looks all that fit, to begin with. The article says she's 5'3, so she could be somewhat stocky, but she doesn't look "fit" in her face and neck area. She looks like she has a soft face, not one that looks like she has been intensely training in the USMC for a course such as that. Just saying.

 

[GURPS]

I disagree that she was set up to fail. As she said in another interview, she didn't know what to expect and was not well prepared. She still does not know what to expect for those portions of the test beyond the point where she withdrew. I would hope she is given sufficient time to prepare and develop the necessary strength and skills needed to meet those challenges she has already seen and to have some hope for those she has not yet seen. It's interesting that she said that though she was now allowed a second attempt she did not wish to do it in an interview a week ago. I wonder what has happened to change her mind.

time to prepare for what :shrug:

I signed on the dotted line in 1984 and away I went 3 months later ....

 

[Hijinx]

She stated she was set up to fail, and makes a good point. I say give her a second chance.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-p...usmc-s-most-grueling-test-223033894.html?vp=1

Marines really need a 5'3" woman leading them in battle.
She says she needed to know what to expect so she could train to pass.
Anybody ever go to battle knowing what to expect?

She was set up to fail. Her Creator did that, Not the Marine Corps.

 

[MMM_donuts]

I understood her statements to mean that the gender different standards all the way up from boot camp contributed to her lack of success. I don't think she's trying to say she would have passed otherwise, I think she's saying that she would be more appropriately trained to take on advanced training if she had been held to the same standards as the men from the beginning.

I don't think ALL women could keep up with men but I do think there are some out there that can. I think the standard should be set and the opportunity to participate based on the ability to pass the standard, not based on gender.

Yes, I read the report about the Marines and it blatantly states that it is largely hypothetical but also applicable to the male population. Show me a combat Marine that hasn't had joint issues or tissue damage. And as far as the pull up program was reported, an Army representative stated that women weren't cut out for the program but the Marine representative stated that there are flaws in the pilot program, otherwise he's confident that his Marines could be very successful with it in the future.

 

[Monello]

Give her a second chance to pass. It will probably take a few months of intense training for her to get to a level where she has a good chance of succeeding in that course.

The fact that she would write an article about the experience tells me she's a bit of an attention whore who has that 'look at me' thing going on. And I don't see how 26 males also withdrawing from the course is relevant to her story.

The gal in the attachemnt was Miss Maryland in 2000. She's a personal trainer. She is amazingly strong. But she goes to the gym 6 days a week year round. That is what she does. It will take that amount of training to get to where a female has strength equal to or great than a male. BTW she's 50 years old and does not take steroids or growth hormones.

 

[b23hqb]

Sure, give her a 2nd chance along with all those who washed out the first time. But schedule her for the same cycle as the men - the course is held four times a year - no more additional time. She knew what she was getting into, and if she says she did not know what to expect, I throw the BS flag.

A little research beforehand and talking to fellow officers that have completed the course should suffice. I've seen presentations and documentaries on what they go through, especially the physical parts, day by day.

Saying she was programmed to fail is a cop out.

 

[Larry Gude]

Saying she was programmed to fail is a cop out.

Now, let us not be too hasty. If we think about it, that is exactly the right wing knock on progressive social and educational policy; it programs people to fail. If she is saying, and I think she is, that being 'treated like a girl', the reduced expectations and so forth, as opposed to a single standard to begin with, is at least part of the problem then, we're onto something here and for the right reasons.

 

[Lurk]

time to prepare for what :shrug:

I signed on the dotted line in 1984 and away I went 3 months later ....

Marine recruiters have been known to use the time between signing on the dotted line and getting on the bus to the ISLAND to hold frequent and serious physical training for their selectees. Marine recruiters take pride in not having their enlistees flunk out of basic training (whereas recruiters from the other services count coups once the signature dries on the paperwork). But in her case, she is already a Marine officer (which means she passed the same physical training as all officer candidates to the Marine Corps). Just as those who aspire to the Green Berets, SEALS and other elite groups do, she should have taken time to prepare herself for the most strenuous and rigorous testing she could imagine. She now knows what to expect for that portion of the test leading up to the point at which she withdrew.

 

[Lurk]

Sure, give her a 2nd chance along with all those who washed out the first time. But schedule her for the same cycle as the men - the course is held four times a year - no more additional time. She knew what she was getting into, and if she says she did not know what to expect, I throw the BS flag.

A little research beforehand and talking to fellow officers that have completed the course should suffice. I've seen presentations and documentaries on what they go through, especially the physical parts, day by day.

Saying she was programmed to fail is a cop out.

"Students are warned to not disclose anything about the test, lest future students get an easier ride."

Taken from that citadel of conservatism the New York Times. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/30/us/marines-test-women-for-infantry-roles.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

My own assessment is that I trust that Marine officers do NOT spill the beans on the content of this course because they have pride in what they do and who they are.

Colonel Desgrosseilliers said he is confident that women will eventually pass the course. (Even if some do, they will not automatically become infantry officers, until the corps makes a final recommendation on opening the infantry to women.)

But for that to happen, he said, they will need to start preparing in college or high school, as many men do

 

[acommondisaster]

I understood her statements to mean that the gender different standards all the way up from boot camp contributed to her lack of success. I don't think she's trying to say she would have passed otherwise, I think she's saying that she would be more appropriately trained to take on advanced training if she had been held to the same standards as the men from the beginning.

I don't think ALL women could keep up with men but I do think there are some out there that can. I think the standard should be set and the opportunity to participate based on the ability to pass the standard, not based on gender.

Yes, I read the report about the Marines and it blatantly states that it is largely hypothetical but also applicable to the male population. Show me a combat Marine that hasn't had joint issues or tissue damage. And as far as the pull up program was reported, an Army representative stated that women weren't cut out for the program but the Marine representative stated that there are flaws in the pilot program, otherwise he's confident that his Marines could be very successful with it in the future.

There's nothing that prohibited her, if she really wanted IOC, to train on her own to the men's standard. Maxing her PT score as a woman should never have been enough for her and nothing stopped her - ever - in applying the mens standards to her PT score. So that's a bunch of baloney. Women have different run times, but the length of the course is still the same, so how does that stop her? With the exception of a few, women won't ever meet men's physical standards; smarter people than her have figured it out, yet she wants the standards changed so the Marines can cater to her desires. And the men's standards should never be lowered just so that women can pass. She's just another unique snowflake - she just needs to realize the person who failed her, is her.

 

[itsrequired]

Now, let us not be too hasty. If we think about it, that is exactly the right wing knock on progressive social and educational policy; it programs people to fail. If she is saying, and I think she is, that being 'treated like a girl', the reduced expectations and so forth, as opposed to a single standard to begin with, is at least part of the problem then, we're onto something here and for the right reasons.

This was exactly my thought. From what I gather, she thinks we should stop treating girls....well like girls. If they are going to be doing things traditionally done by men, then they should be treated that way from the start. She doesn't seem to be asking for anything except being held to the same standard.

 

[Larry Gude]

This was exactly my thought. From what I gather, she thinks we should stop treating girls....well like girls. If they are going to be doing things traditionally done by men, then they should be treated that way from the start. She doesn't seem to be asking for anything except being held to the same standard.

She, so far, doesn't seem to be becoming a cause celebre with the left so, perhaps that's why; they want a story where someone is being held back by white men and she may well be saying "Yeah, and it's because they're behind the rules trying to help me and that only makes it worse, not better..." *no story here!!!*

 

[itsrequired]

She, so far, doesn't seem to be becoming a cause celebre with the left so, perhaps that's why; they want a story where someone is being held back by white men and she may well be saying "Yeah, and it's because they're behind the rules trying to help me and that only makes it worse, not better..." *no story here!!!*

I think she is the anti-story with the left. She is not oppressed and in the views of the left likely would be part of the oppressors. She wants to hold people to the same standard. How dare she not make for a sub-class of people who are being persecuted because of their gender.

 

[Larry Gude]

I think she is the anti-story with the left. She is not oppressed and in the views of the left likely would be part of the oppressors. She wants to hold people to the same standard. How dare she not make for a sub-class of people who are being persecuted because of their gender.

So, we, on the right, instead of sticking our heads back in the sand on social issues and grumble about how women don't belong in the military in the first place and here is why, should seize on her and say 'this is EXACTLY the kind of person, man or woman, we NEED in the military and public service; someone not seeking personal advantage.'

 

[Bann]

There's nothing that prohibited her, if she really wanted IOC, to train on her own to the men's standard. Maxing her PT score as a woman should never have been enough for her and nothing stopped her - ever - in applying the mens standards to her PT score. So that's a bunch of baloney. Women have different run times, but the length of the course is still the same, so how does that stop her? With the exception of a few, women won't ever meet men's physical standards; smarter people than her have figured it out, yet she wants the standards changed so the Marines can cater to her desires. And the men's standards should never be lowered just so that women can pass. She's just another unique snowflake - she just needs to realize the person who failed her, is her.

I'm in agreement with you, except that I thought she said she doesn't want the standard changed - she thinks the female training should be changed - so that females have a higher training bar in order TO be able to achieve the same standards (to pass the IOC)that are already in place. I think she has a point worth exploring, even though I have doubts that it will produce difrerent/better results. I think more women would just drop out sooner. Like you said - I don't think most females will be able to achieve the same physical standard as the males. I just don't think it's physiologically possible for most females.

Also, she doesn't look like she works out a lot to me, either.