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b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
:yay:

Indeed ..... but that has been the case my entire life, [born in 65] only recently has it intensified with the 'Arab Spring'

'65? You're a spring chicken - '54 was the real year. In the last ten years or so, it is becoming very obvious that all signs are staring us right in the face. As far as I, along with many that are far more scholarly on prophecies and the Bible, can tell, the only prophecy that has not occurred to fulfill the rapture of the church - those that sleep in Christ first, then those that are alive to follow - is the occurrence of the rapture itself.

We are told to watch for the Lord always, the old "like a thief in the night, twinkle of the eye" thingy.

Just be ready for whenever it happens.
 

Amused_despair

New Member
I do not understand this belief in the Rapture. Why would God remove Christians from the world to spare them the pain of the Tribulation when the purpose of the Tribulation seems to be to weed out those who really do believe from those who who are just going through the motions? God didn't spare the people he actually broke bread with and walked hundreds of miles with from expereinceing extreme pain and terrifying deaths at the hands of the authorities at the beginning of the Church. Why would he spare a whole bunch of well-taken care of Western Christians who have only suffered the persecution of not being able to enforce the requirement for all to pray at public events and have been forced to sell cakes to gay people when Christians in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia have been persecuted, enslaved, raped, tortured, and killed for ther faith? We sit here and hoard our wealth and call ourselves poor, we consider oursleves Godly when we give 10% of what we make to the Church when Jesus pointed out the poor widow who gave so much more. Why would God pull us out of the game and allow us to escape?

As for prophecies, isn't one of them the occurance of the Abmomination of Desolation happenning again? Won't the Temple need to be rebuilt for this to happen?
 
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b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
I do not understand this belief in the Rapture. Why would God remove Christians from the world to spare them the pain of the Tribulation when the purpose of the Tribulation seems to be to weed out those who really do believe from those who who are just going through the motions? God didn't spare the people he actually broke bread with and walked hundreds of miles with from expereinceing extreme pain and terrifying deaths at the hands of the authorities at the beginning of the Church. Why would he spare a whole bunch of well-taken care of Western Christians who have only suffered the persecution of not being able to enforce the requirement for all to pray at public events and have been forced to sell cakes to gay people when Christians in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia have been persecuted, enslaved, raped, tortured, and killed for ther faith? We sit here and hoard our wealth and call ourselves poor, we consider oursleves Godly when we give 10% of what we make to the Church when Jesus pointed out the poor widow who gave so much more. Why would God pull us out of the game and allow us to escape?

As for prophecies, isn't one of them the occurance of the Abmomination of Abmominations happenning again? Won't the Temple need to be rebuilt for this to happen?

Here is a very good, logical exposition on the pre-trib rapture of believers. Takes about 10 minutes to read, and here is an excerpt that has always persuaded my belief in the pre-trib: why would a loving God force his believing, born into His family, children through trials and suffering and pain of non-believers?:

https://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

"Persecute Me Please

You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.

Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.

I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).

In one regard, people who think the Church will go through the tribulation are somewhat correct. I believe a huge number people--who are Christians in name only--will find themselves left behind. By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those who find themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse."

(bolding and size emphasis added by me)
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
Here is a very good, logical exposition on the pre-trib rapture of believers. Takes about 10 minutes to read, and here is an excerpt that has always persuaded my belief in the pre-trib: why would a loving God force his believing, born into His family, children through trials and suffering and pain of non-believers?:

https://www.raptureready.com/rr-pre-trib-rapture.html

"Persecute Me Please

You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.

Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.

I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).

In one regard, people who think the Church will go through the tribulation are somewhat correct. I believe a huge number people--who are Christians in name only--will find themselves left behind. By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those who find themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse."

(bolding and size emphasis added by me)


The term "endtimes" applies both to the era of Christ's first coming (Heb 1:2, 1 Cor 10:11, Heb 9:26) and to the events immediately before his return and the end of the ages (Mt 24:13, 2 Tim 2:1, 2 Peter 3:3). The definitive Catholic teaching on the endtimes is contained in the Catechism of the Catholic Church under the discussion of the article of the Creed, "From thence He will come again to judge the living and the dead." [CCC 668-682]

As the Creed infallibly teaches, the Second Coming is associated with the end of the world and the Last Judgment. Therefore, it is NOT associated with any earlier time - such as to establish a "Millennium." The Catholic Church specifically condemns "millenarianism," according to which Jesus will establish a throne in this world and reign here for a thousand years [CCC 676]. She teaches instead that Jesus already reigns in eternity (1 Cor. 15:24-27, Rev. 4 & 5) and that in this world His reign, established as a seed, is found already in the Church [CCC 668-669]. This is the 1000 years, which is the Hebrew way of indicating an indefinite long time - in this case, the time between the first and second comings, the era of the Church, in other words the last days in the broadest sense.The Book of Revelation situates this era between the persecutions of the Roman antichrists of the first century and the final unleashing of evil at the end.

Naturally, non-Catholics cannot accept that the Catholic Church represents Christ in this world, so they are forced to look for a personal earthly reign somewhere out in the future. The notion that Jesus will come, reign, and then depart, so that the devil can trick the world again, is incompatible with the incomprehensible dignity of the Lord and His love for His people. Jesus' Coming will be definitive, triumphant and ever-lasting, NOT temporal and limited.

As for the Rapture, the meaning of 1 Thes 4:15-17 is that at the return of Christ (v.15) and the General Resurrection of the Dead (v.16), those who survive the persecution of the Antichrist will have no advantage in being resurrected over those who died before His Coming [CCC 1001]. All will go to meet Him and be with Him forever (v.17; cf. Rev 20:17-21:27).


The Catechism provides us with a general order of events at the End [CCC 673-677]. Chronologically they are,

1. the full number of the Gentiles come into the Church

2. the "full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of the full number of the Gentiles" (#2 will follow quickly on, in the wake of, #1)

3. a final trial of the Church "in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth." The supreme deception is that of the Antichrist.

4. Christ's victory over this final unleashing of evil through a cosmic upheaval of this passing world and the Last Judgment.
 

Amused_despair

New Member
But what about Revelations 7:13-14?, Mathew 24:29-31? there are other passages but those seem to say the clearest to me that Christians will be persecuted durig the Tribulation and won't be gathered until Jesus returns.
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
From Catholic Answers...

The Rapture

Premillennialists often give much attention to the doctrine of the rapture. According to this doctrine, when Christ returns, all of the elect who have died will be raised and transformed into a glorious state, along with the living elect, and then be caught up to be with Christ. The key text referring to the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which states, "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Premillennialists hold, as do virtually all Christians (except certain postmillennialists), that the Second Coming will be preceded by a time of great trouble and persecution of God’s people (2 Thess. 2:1–4). This period is often called the tribulation. Until the nineteenth century, all Christians agreed that the rapture—though it was not called that at the time—would occur immediately before the Second Coming, at the close of the period of persecution. This position is today called the "post-tribulational" view because it says the rapture will come after the tribulation.

But in the 1800s, some began to claim that the rapture would occur before the period of persecution. This position, now known as the "pre-tribulational" view, also was embraced by John Nelson Darby, an early leader of a Fundamentalist movement that became known as Dispensationalism. Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bibleuncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the pre-tribulational view, even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history.

Eventually, a third position developed, known as the "mid-tribulational" view, which claims that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. Finally, a fourth view developed that claims that there will not be a single rapture where all believers are gathered to Christ, but that there will be a series of mini-raptures that occur at different times with respect to the tribulation.

This confusion has caused the movement to split into bitterly opposed camps.

The problem with all of the positions (except the historic, post-tribulational view, which was accepted by all Christians, including non-premillennialists) is that they split the Second Coming into different events. In the case of the pre-trib view, Christ is thought to have three comings—one when he was born in Bethlehem, one when he returns for the rapture at the tribulation’s beginning, and one at tribulation’s end, when he establishes the millennium. This three-comings view is foreign to Scripture.

Problems with the pre-tribulational view are highlighted by Baptist (and premillennial) theologian Dale Moody, who wrote: "Belief in a pre-tribulational rapture . . . contradicts all three chapters in the New Testament that mention the tribulation and the rapture together (Mark 13:24–27; Matt. 24:26–31; 2 Thess. 2:1–12). . . . The theory is so biblically bankrupt that the usual defense is made using three passages that do not even mention a tribulation (John 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:17; 1 Cor. 15:52). These are important passages, but they have not had one word to say about a pre-tribulational rapture. The score is 3 to 0, three passages for a post-tribulational rapture and three that say nothing on the subject.
. . . Pre-tribulationism is biblically bankrupt and does not know it" (The Word of Truth, 556–7).
 

hotcoffee

New Member
I do not understand this belief in the Rapture.

I hold on to 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." IMHO when the great Tribulation is upon us, Rapture is the way out.

Why would God remove Christians from the world to spare them the pain of the Tribulation when the purpose of the Tribulation seems to be to weed out those who really do believe from those who who are just going through the motions?

IMHO....The purpose of the Tribulation is to give those who haven't made up their minds a final chance just like everyone else who is left behind. Christians go through tribulation from time to time in their lives. As I write this I'm dealing with tribulation in my life.

The End Time Tribulation will be bigger and badder than any time of tribulation before it. It will be Uncommon!

God didn't spare the people he actually broke bread with and walked hundreds of miles with from expereinceing extreme pain and terrifying deaths at the hands of the authorities at the beginning of the Church.

They will be taken up with the Dead in Christ, if He hasn't already taken them up. [I'm referring to Moses and Elijah at Transfiguration] He couldn't take the disciples with Him, they had work to do. Even their death [martyrdom] was part of their work. He warned them of the peril to come [just as we are warned of the Tribulation]. He Himself hadn't gone through His Tribulation on the Cross yet.

Why would he spare a whole bunch of well-taken care of Western Christians who have only suffered the persecution of not being able to enforce the requirement for all to pray at public events and have been forced to sell cakes to gay people when Christians in Africa, the Middle East, and Asia have been persecuted, enslaved, raped, tortured, and killed for ther faith?

He will only spare Christians. He won't spare the hypocrites. He'll give them a final chance.... and some will still be so hard of heart it won't matter. He'll give those who play church and final chance.... but they will have to experience some of the Great Tribulation. Others won't even make it through.... because they won't stand up for Christ.

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

We sit here and hoard our wealth and call ourselves poor, we consider oursleves Godly when we give 10% of what we make to the Church when Jesus pointed out the poor widow who gave so much more. Why would God pull us out of the game and allow us to escape?

Some of us but not all of us.....

As for prophecies, isn't one of them the occurance of the Abmomination of Desolation happenning again? Won't the Temple need to be rebuilt for this to happen?

If all of the prophecies had been fulfilled already.... this would be a different conversation.... We're just saying that the end seems much closer..... and realistically.... wouldn't we be correct.... time just keeps ticking on.... and we just keep getting closer and closer....

Oh that's how I see it anyway.....

:coffee:
 

Amused_despair

New Member
I believe the Tribulation will be how the real Christians are seperated from those who are in name only. when jesus reappears that is when the remainng faithful will be summoned to him many who say now they are devout Christians will gladly turn their back on a faith they feel has deserted them so that they are able to feed themselves or their families.

As for not all of us hoarding wealth, if you are an American Christian, lets face it, we hoard. We scrimp and save and put away for a rainy day instead of giving to the poor. If we give to the poor we give what we can spare, not what we have. The poor widow in the temple is an example of what Jesus expects, i think. Jesus said "Sell all that you own, give the proceeds to the poor and follow me.....It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." Jesus told his followers to trust in the Lord to provide for them, to look at the lilies in the field and see how they are, even Solomon was not garbed as wonderfully as they are. Jesus wanted us to worry more about the hereafter and not about the here. We worry more about here and less about the hereafter.

We are all sinners. The Jews beleived that sin was a deed, jesus taught that if you thought of a sin, you sinned. before him, adultry was a sin, jesus taught that just coveting your neighbor's wife was adultry. I read something ages ago that i wish I could find again, about the Mark of the Beast. what if that is symbolic and not an actual mark. The Mark is suppsed to be on the hands and heads of those who follow the Antichrist. On the hands for what deeds they do, their heads for what deeds they think of doing. Maybe it won't be a physical mark but the fact that they sin by their deeds and thoughts?
 

Amused_despair

New Member
I hold on to 1 Corinthians 10:13 "No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it." IMHO when the great Tribulation is upon us, Rapture is the way out.


:coffee:

He doesn't say he will remove the temptation, but will provide a way to endure it.
 

Radiant1

Soul Probe
I tend to agree with Amused_despair on this one.

Why would God spare His people from the suffering of the tribulation if he hasn't done that in the last two millenia? In addition, what's the point of the tribulation if the wheat and tares have already been sorted out? I think the pre-trib stuff is just wishful thinking.
 
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