Fundamentalist Islam and you...

[Larry Gude]

...

Lots of American's think there should be severe punishment for breaking the law. Execute drug dealers. Shoot people for jay walking or driving slow in the left lane.

In fundamentalist Islam (FI), they chop your hand off for stealing and execute drug dealers.



Lots of American's think women should be MUCH more reserved and conservative. Mike Huckabee, Limbaugh, lots of people think women should be stay at home moms, not be so free sexually, etc.

In FI, they feel the same way.



Lots of American's hate pop culture. The sex, drugs and rock and roll. Think it is destroying our world.

In FI, they feel the same way.



Lots of American's think we should just nuke Muslims, get rid of them because they're...uh...murderous and hate us and are a threat to our way of life...?

Guess what! FI feels the same way about us.



Lots of American's think Muslims are sneaky scum bags, assassins, cowards who only attack the weakest targets.

And yet, we support assassination, drone strikes and, by and large, a lot of us do not give a tinkers damn about collateral damage. See 'nuke em all".



Lots of American's think we should be much more conservative and honor thy parents, go to church regularly, honor old traditions.

Lots of FI feel the same way.



Osama bin Laden declared his fatwa on the US in 1996 and, if you take the time to read it and make a few changes here and there, it could very well have been written by, say, Jerry Falwell.


I point all this out to point this out; we have reduced FI down to 'terrorists/extremists/radical" yet, by and large, their motivations and ideas are an awful lot like ours. Now, you might be jumping up and down and protesting that we;re NOT like them, that we DON'T attack, don't assassinate, DON'T do honor killings and stone adulterers but, you go back through the above and you'll see, in a lot of ways, we have the exact same ideas and impulses and we used to be a lot more like that and you'll say that there is a big difference between saying it and doing it and you'd be correct.

Now, think about why we're not like that anymore, by and large, even though many of us would be all too happy to be more 'savage' in a lot of circumstances.
Answer; because we STOPPED doing many of those things. We modernized and 'Westernized'. But, again, there's a lot of us that are not very happy with a lot of it.

I don't want us to lose to Islam, but we are. I think it is because we refuse to see our enemy for what it is; fundamentalist. They are what we USED to be. We don't treat it savagely enough and get on with it and over with so that we don't have to become more and more backwards every year; drone strikes, assassinations, turning back the clock on our own freedoms, violating our own ideas, principles and laws and excuse it by pointing a finger at THEM.

My argument is that we have a MUCH better chance of winning, of liberal society over coming the tyranny of Islam IF we start reconciling what we have in common with them and rejecting those impulses, as we did, over time, to become a liberal, free society. Becoming more and more like them to beat them defeats the entire point. And, again, is not working.

The West became the west, liberal, free, rule of law, by mastering how we use violence and insisting on it being as proper as possible, to use great force in taking lives to, in the long run, save even more lives. Islam wants to use force to end us, to see a Muslim world devoid of the individual freedoms and liberties we have long taken for granted. We'd like it if the world is more like us but, we're not being us. We're turning the clock back on ourselves.

When we start seeing our lesser selves in FI, when we start intellectualizing why we're no longer like that and how that became so, when we reassert that we are NOT like that, we start back towards our ideas and principles. Violence isn't the issue.

How and why is.

 

[GURPS]

hardly

http://cnsnews.com/blog/melanie-hun...-group-executes-woman-accused-adultery-syria?

 

[PsyOps]

You don't want to lose to Islam, but yet claim they are what they are because of what we've done in the ME. So, how do you propose we win when it's our fault to begin with? Why not just demand our government admit we screwed up, apologize for it, tell them we will never do it again, we will never butt our noses into their business again, pull everyone back home, and hope they accept our apology?

 

[Larry Gude]

You don't want to lose to Islam, but yet claim they are what they are because of what we've done in the ME.

That makes no sense, Psy. They ARE what they are, with or without us. Our presence, based on who they are, simply serves WHO they are, helps them stay that way.

Think in terms of counter productive. What we've been doing is the absolute best way for them to do what they are doing. I'd argue it is indispensable. They MUST have us to save them. Absent us, they change or continue to fade away. We give them life.

 

[Larry Gude]

hardly

http://cnsnews.com/blog/melanie-hun...-group-executes-woman-accused-adultery-syria?

You say 'hardly' yet you post a link that supports my point.


OK.

 

[vraiblonde]

Ermigerd!!! Anyone who thinks criminals should be punished is omigod like totally fundie Islam!! If you don't think blatant porn belongs on prime time - for free! - then you are one step away from chopping off a journalist's head!!!

Omigodomigodomigod!!!! We're like omigod so totally doomed!!!











Larry, if for nothing else, you need a girlfriend so you can run these stupid ideas across someone, maybe hear them out loud and see how you sound, before you embarrass yourself by going public with them. I wasn't even going to dignify this stupid blather with a response but...eh...there might be some mush mind out there reading who will agree with you unless someone points out how ridiculous that is.

Now you can puff up and make some enormous powerpost about how IDENTICAL!!! conservative Americans are to fundie Islamists, and have fun with that because I'm not going to be reading it.

 

[Larry Gude]

Ermigerd!!! Anyone who thinks criminals should be punished is omigod like totally fundie Islam!! If you don't think blatant porn belongs on prime time - for free! - then you are one step away from chopping off a journalist's head!!!

Omigodomigodomigod!!!! We're like omigod so totally doomed!!!











Larry, if for nothing else, you need a girlfriend so you can run these stupid ideas across someone, maybe hear them out loud and see how you sound, before you embarrass yourself by going public with them. I wasn't even going to dignify this stupid blather with a response but...eh...there might be some mush mind out there reading who will agree with you unless someone points out how ridiculous that is.

Now you can puff up and make some enormous powerpost about how IDENTICAL!!! conservative Americans are to fundie Islamists, and have fun with that because I'm not going to be reading it.

I was actually counting on Queen Off With Their Heads pitching in to help make the point.

Thank you.

 

[GURPS]

...

My argument is that we have a MUCH better chance of winning, of liberal society over coming the tyranny of Islam IF we start reconciling what we have in common with them and rejecting those impulses, as we did, over time, to become a liberal, free society. Becoming more and more like them to beat them defeats the entire point. And, again, is not working.

and what exactly is that .... it gives them power, Fundamentalist Islam is rapidly spreading across the globe
WTF is there to fight over in Nigeria ...
Explain Boko Haram then ?

Power ...
Control ....


the problem I see is, we quit using the proper amount of violence and have been come a nation of pussies afraid of offending someone
the British were losing the Boer War .... civilians were giving aid and comfort to the Guerrillas

Second Boer War

The complex origins of the war resulted from more than a century of conflict between the Boers and the British Empire, but of particular immediate importance was the question as to which nation would control and benefit most from the very lucrative Witwatersrand gold mines.[7] During the Napoleonic Wars, a British military expedition landed in the Cape Colony and defeated the defending Dutch forces at the Battle of Blaauwberg (1806).[8] After the war, the British formally acquired the colony (1814), and encouraged immigration by British settlers who were largely at odds with the Dutch settlers. Many Boers who were dissatisfied with aspects of British administration, in particular with Britain's abolition of slavery on 1 December 1834, elected to migrate away from British rule in what became known as the Great Trek.[8]

The Trekkers initially followed the eastern coast towards Natal and then, after Britain annexed the Natal in 1843, journeyed northwards towards the interior. There they established two independent Boer republics: the South African Republic (1852; also known as the Transvaal Republic) and the Orange Free State (1854). The British recognised the two Boer republics in 1852 and 1854, but attempted British annexation of the Transvaal in 1877 led to the First Boer War in 1880–81. After the British suffered defeats, particularly at the Battle of Majuba Hill (1881), the independence of the two republics was restored subject to certain conditions; relations, however, remained uneasy.

In 1866 Erasmus Jacobs discovered diamonds at Kimberley, prompting a diamond rush and a massive influx of foreigners to the borders of the Orange Free State. Then in 1886, an Australian discovered gold in the Witwatersrand area of the South African Republic. Gold made the Transvaal the richest and potentially the most powerful nation in southern Africa; however, the country had neither the manpower nor the industrial base to develop the resource on its own. As a result, the Transvaal reluctantly acquiesced to the immigration of uitlanders (foreigners), mainly from Britain, who came to the Boer region in search of fortune and employment. This resulted in the number of uitlanders in the Transvaal potentially exceeding the number of Boers, and precipitated confrontations between the earlier-arrived Boer settlers and the newer, non-Boer arrivals.



[clip]

In the third and final phase, beginning in March 1900, the Boers launched a protracted hard-fought guerrilla war against the British forces, lasting a further two years, during which the Boers raided targets such as British troop columns, telegraph sites, railways and storage depots. In an effort to cut off supplies to the raiders, the British, now under the leadership of Lord Kitchener, responded with a scorched earth policy of destroying Boer farms and moving civilians into concentration camps.[10]

110 yrs later the Dutch aren't pissing and moaning about the mistreatment ....


you are acting like Sunnis can be reasoned with

 

[Larry Gude]

...and make some enormous powerpost about how IDENTICAL!!! conservative Americans are to fundie Islamists, and have fun with that because I'm not going to be reading it.

Which I expressly did NOT do AND explained the difference but, that wouldn't fit your point. :shrug:

 

[Larry Gude]

....the problem I see is, we quit using the proper amount of violence and have been come a nation of pussies afraid of offending someone
the British were losing the Boer War .... civilians were giving aid and comfort to the Guerrillas

Exactly. What we're doing is equivalent to using too little antibiotic; by not using an effective dosage, we actually make the disease stronger. So, if wee agree on that, then, the next question, is the infection something that will clear up on it's own and isn't worth worry about, my contention, or, was 17 Saudi's with box cutters really worth a nuke?

My hope in you is renewed. Us not doing the right thing has been used as the excuse for doing the WRONG things. For 13 years now. And that has taken ALL the energy from working to do the RIGHT things.

 

[Larry Gude]

you are acting like Sunnis can be reasoned with

My name is Gude.


Not Bush.

 

[kwillia]

OMG, Larry. You left out one key word in your rant. Extremism.

The pendulum swings to the far right and to the far left. The vast mojority of people want to live somewhare in the middle. I'm one that wants to live in the middle and as a result my emphisis is to the right because I believe the balance is too far to the left.

Here's an basic little example of what I'm trying to say, when a New York hospital has changed it's forms so that the person who gave birth can mark "female" or "male"... I believe we are indeed too far to the left. To me a balane would be that if a person who was born female wants to really identify as male than she can't completely do that until she is truly no longer 'female' by truly absolving herself of her ability to continue to be female.

 

[Larry Gude]

OMG, Larry. You left out one key word in your rant. Extremism.

The pendulum swings to the far right and to the far left. The vast mojority of people want to live somewhare in the middle. I'm one that wants to live in the middle and as a result my emphisis is to the right because I believe the balance is too far to the left.

Here's an basic little example of what I'm trying to say, when a New York hospital has changed it's forms so that the person who gave birth can mark "female" or "male"... I believe we are indeed too far to the left. To me a balane would be that if a person who was born female wants to really identify as male than she can't completely do that until she is truly no longer 'female' by truly absolving herself of her ability to continue to be female.

Are you in the wrong thread? The Bruce(ette) Jenner is not here.

 

[GURPS]

My hope in you is renewed. Us not doing the right thing has been used as the excuse for doing the WRONG things. For 13 years now. And that has taken ALL the energy from working to do the RIGHT things.

I have advocated for more strenuous measures
.... round the clock carpet bombing
... every 4 hours another flight of B-52's flys over dropping another 25,000 lbs of bombs
.... non stop week in and week out

Mosul, Sader City, Tikrit ....


until their are to few to fight, or they give up

Nukes
Chemical Weapons

on the table as well

 

[Hijinx]

You don't want to lose to Islam, but yet claim they are what they are because of what we've done in the ME. So, how do you propose we win when it's our fault to begin with? Why not just demand our government admit we screwed up, apologize for it, tell them we will never do it again, we will never butt our noses into their business again, pull everyone back home, and hope they accept our apology?

If the Muslims don't start no sh1t, there won't be no sh1t.

Meantime you fight fire with fire.

Turning the other cheek does not work with these a-holes.

Being Mr. Nice Guy with Muslims is a sign of weakness.

I have stated before that the only way we can win with Islam is to cull them back until they no longer wish to fight.
That is the only way to win a war.
We did it in WW1 and WW2.

You can call that genocide or anything you like. It's the only way to win with people who live in the 10th century.

 

[Larry Gude]

I have advocated for more strenuous measures
.... round the clock carpet bombing
... every 4 hours another flight of B-52's flys over dropping another 25,000 lbs of bombs
.... non stop week in and week out

Mosul, Sader City, Tikrit ....


until their are to few to fight, or they give up

Nukes
Chemical Weapons

on the table as well

And you know as well as I do, it would take a faction of that to achieve the desired results; us winning, them losing. That is what I thought we were going to do in March '03, WIN. I was wrong.

So, what then? What we've been doing, obviously, has exacerbated the problem because it is far more widespread than when we started. Now, maybe we've been doing it right and the international fever is simply the infection getting ready to break but, I don't think so.

You and I not getting our way is not, can not be, the reason for doing things that make the entire problem worse while sacrificing who we are in the process. You don't fight for principles by sacrificing them. Especially when you don't 'have' to and especially when it isn't working and super especially when we have so many other options.

 

[PsyOps]

That makes no sense, Psy. They ARE what they are, with or without us. Our presence, based on who they are, simply serves WHO they are, helps them stay that way.

Think in terms of counter productive. What we've been doing is the absolute best way for them to do what they are doing. I'd argue it is indispensable. They MUST have us to save them. Absent us, they change or continue to fade away. We give them life.

How doesn't it make no sense? You have blamed this country for why we are here obsessively. You have, for the longest time, advocated 'we need to get out of there' / 'we need to stop sticking our noses into foreign affairs', then you talk about a 'chance at winning'. I'm trying to figure out where your goalpost is. Do we continue the fight, but do it right, or get the heck out?

And I think it needs to be noted that this country is NOTHING near resembling Islamic states. I don't get your points on this and really don't think it's worth much for debate.

 

[kwillia]

Are you in the wrong thread? The Bruce(ette) Jenner is not here.

NOt at all. If you think I'm in the wrong thread than go back and read my post because you've missed my message. The male vs. female was "a basic little example" of how even though I don't consider myself to be extreme right you, my sister, my brother, etc. classify me as a conservative with extreme leans towards the right because I refurse to accept the cart blanche extreme push of the progressive extreme-right agenda currently being shoved on my society.

To give you another example based on your initial tirade yes I believe the feminist movement is way to extreme to the left but that doesn't mean I am a fundamentalist who now believes I should walk three steps behind my husband and wear a burka. You are the one off your rocker for assuming so.

 

[Larry Gude]

If the Muslims don't start no sh1t, there won't be no sh1t.

But, we, of course, can start all the #### we like because we're us.

That right? They just supposed to take it? Because we're the land of the free and the home of the brave? That it?

 

[Larry Gude]

NOt at all. If you think I'm in the wrong thread than go back and read my post because you've missed my message. The male vs. female was "a basic little example" of how even though I don't consider myself to be extreme right you, my sister, my brother, etc. classify me as a conservative with extreme leans towards the right because I refurse to accept the cart blanche extreme push of the progressive extreme-right agenda currently being shoved on my society.

Well, I was just checking. In my view, we had three choices in dealing with Islam;

1. Let it continue to recede into history (not invade, let them keep sinking of their own weight)
2. Invade and sorta fight and sorta kill and sorta build and sorta...whatever
3. Wipe them out to the point they leave us alone.


I thought we were going to do 3. That we did 2 will forever blow my mind that I lived in the middle of an incredibly stupid era in US history. In that view, 1 would have been far preferable.

So, in this case, the middle of the road gets you run over coming and going. :shrug: