Buffett speaks for capital...

Larry Gude

Strung Out
http://www.wsj.com/articles/better-than-raising-the-minimum-wage-1432249927

The Oracle sees much. He just doesn't see the obvious; supply and demand in labor is THE problem.

You'll have to read the whole thing which, I know, an American should never have to do before commenting on something but, hey, you really should.

In any event, Warren's argument is against the minimum wage and in favor of new and better tax cuts as the way to help the poor. He does this hot on the heels of expressing the concern that the Forbes 400, since it's inception a little over 30 years ago, has had it's share of wealth go from $93 billion to $2.400 trillion, up 2400%, or, about 25 times, while the median...tripled.

Now, he talks about all the ones we reflexively think of, education, hard work, innovation, etc but he does so in that same reflexive fashion that does not take into account a society where everyone is educated, qualified, works hard and so forth and the simple fact that all of that success equates to improvements in productivity that then equates to less jobs and less pay for them as the top 'earns' a higher higher percentage of wealth. He talks in analogies, which is fine, saying that if we look at this through the eyes of sports, he'd not even be able to earn the minimum but that hugely misses the point; if there was good balance, even the worst player has a role, has a job. And, to reverse his analogy, in terms of the skill sets rewarded now, more and more is there for 'superstars' who are, in turn, being paid out of what no longer goes to the lesser players whose roles they've eliminated while, at the same time, not confronting that the shear volume of 'superstar' roles, by definition, can't keep pace with more and more people competing for them through the more and more ruthless process of eliminating those lower roles.
He off offhandedly offers up how 200 years ago we were all relatively equal on the farm.

He says the poor are not poor because others are getting rich and this is imply not true. The pie is the pie. If the top gets 25 times more of the total than it used to, you need more pie or those lower down to get less. Period. Capitalists talk in terms of wealth creation and a better mousetrap will always have a place but, MOST of the gains at the top are paper wealth, the simple manipulation of perceived value of the labor and ideas of others to parties motivated not by the product or service but by the perception of the value of the products and services. If that was good for workers, the median, the ratio wouldn't be 25:3.

He argues we are all better off for the Henry Fords and Jobs and Waltons but, are we? Does he ever walk around and see his fellow American's? Ford made things better for his workers; better jobs, better wages, better life. Can that be said of Jobs and Walton whose workers are in sweatshops over seas? For some, yes, spectacularly better but, again, nowhere near better for most.

It's striking to me that an icon like Buffett would not discuss the most basic principle of an economy; supply and demand, and it's impact on ability to earn.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
He argues we are all better off for the Henry Fords and Jobs and Waltons but, are we? Does he ever walk around and see his fellow American's? Ford made things better for his workers; better jobs, better wages, better life. Can that be said of Jobs and Walton whose workers are in sweatshops over seas?



IIRC - Ford was an anti-Semite who hated Unions and was specifically mentioned in Mein Kamf as an inspiration - but hey he did raise wages to stage off the UAW - and almost broke up the company in 1941, but his wife threatened to leave him if he did.

Jobs - you mean Steve and Apple - sure Apple contracts companies in China to manufacture its products - are you implying Apple has some liability in how the Communist Chinese Gov. treats its factory workers ?


Walton - Sam Walton - same as Apple


:shrug:
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
I'm concerned with America.



then why comment about Chinese sweat shops
America has too many workers and not enough JOBS hence low wages - except in North Dakota in the Fracking Zone: Wal-mart pays $ 17.50 there
and with a greater push for $ 15 ... there will be less JOBS and more Automation
 
http://www.wsj.com/articles/better-than-raising-the-minimum-wage-1432249927

The Oracle sees much. He just doesn't see the obvious; supply and demand in labor is THE problem.

You'll have to read the whole thing which, I know, an American should never have to do before commenting on something but, hey, you really should.

In any event, Warren's argument is against the minimum wage and in favor of new and better tax cuts as the way to help the poor. He does this hot on the heels of expressing the concern that the Forbes 400, since it's inception a little over 30 years ago, has had it's share of wealth go from $93 billion to $2.400 trillion, up 2400%, or, about 25 times, while the median...tripled.

Now, he talks about all the ones we reflexively think of, education, hard work, innovation, etc but he does so in that same reflexive fashion that does not take into account a society where everyone is educated, qualified, works hard and so forth and the simple fact that all of that success equates to improvements in productivity that then equates to less jobs and less pay for them as the top 'earns' a higher higher percentage of wealth. He talks in analogies, which is fine, saying that if we look at this through the eyes of sports, he'd not even be able to earn the minimum but that hugely misses the point; if there was good balance, even the worst player has a role, has a job. And, to reverse his analogy, in terms of the skill sets rewarded now, more and more is there for 'superstars' who are, in turn, being paid out of what no longer goes to the lesser players whose roles they've eliminated while, at the same time, not confronting that the shear volume of 'superstar' roles, by definition, can't keep pace with more and more people competing for them through the more and more ruthless process of eliminating those lower roles.
He off offhandedly offers up how 200 years ago we were all relatively equal on the farm.

He says the poor are not poor because others are getting rich and this is imply not true. The pie is the pie. If the top gets 25 times more of the total than it used to, you need more pie or those lower down to get less. Period. Capitalists talk in terms of wealth creation and a better mousetrap will always have a place but, MOST of the gains at the top are paper wealth, the simple manipulation of perceived value of the labor and ideas of others to parties motivated not by the product or service but by the perception of the value of the products and services. If that was good for workers, the median, the ratio wouldn't be 25:3.

He argues we are all better off for the Henry Fords and Jobs and Waltons but, are we? Does he ever walk around and see his fellow American's? Ford made things better for his workers; better jobs, better wages, better life. Can that be said of Jobs and Walton whose workers are in sweatshops over seas? For some, yes, spectacularly better but, again, nowhere near better for most.

It's striking to me that an icon like Buffett would not discuss the most basic principle of an economy; supply and demand, and it's impact on ability to earn.

A potentially great thread you've started here Larry. I wish I had more time this morning to sort through and get into various aspects of the conversation you've (hopefully) started. I think I'll move this thread near the top of the list of ones I'm gonna spend some time in when I get a chance. :smile:

For now though I'd offer two quick responses. As for this:

He says the poor are not poor because others are getting rich and this is imply not true. The pie is the pie. If the top gets 25 times more of the total than it used to, you need more pie or those lower down to get less. Period.

I could not disagree more. The pie is not the pie, prosperity is not a zero sum game - not by a long shot. It's a quintessential example of something not being a zero sum game. The great industrialists / entrepreneurs / business magnates / whatever you want to call them have created great wealth for themselves, yes; but as a class they're also responsible for elevating the economic quality of life of the average and typical American. We are all better off, we live more economically (that's an important qualifier) prosperous lives because of the likes of them. The pie is most certainly not the pie. Indeed, how the supposed pie is divided up is not nearly as important as how many and which pies get baked. The most prosperous among us may become comparably more prosperous than the least prosperous among us, but even those at the bottom become better off then they would have been otherwise - the gap may widen, but the baseline is elevated. (And, compared to other times in our history, e.g. the late 1800s and early 1900s, I'm not so sure that - in real terms - the gap between the most and least prosperous is especially wide at this point in time.) Andrew Carnegie, John Rockefeller, Cornelius Vanderbilt, JP Morgan - as resented as those men may have been by some who were jealous of the wealth they were able to accumulate for themselves and their families, their likes are responsible for improving the economic prospects of average Americans as much as anyone or anything. Most of the people that resented them should have, with a bit more awareness, been thanking them.

As for Walton (Walmart) and Jobs (Apple), they too deserve credit for typical Americans being better off (as do many others, I mention them as they are who you mentioned). Yes, to answer your question, most of us are better off because of them - though for somewhat different reasons when it comes to each of them. I don't intend to leave that as a bare assertion, I hope to return to get further into the why - as far as you want to get. But, speaking generally, we (as Americans) are (again, economically) better off when we are able to get others (e.g. Chinese) to perform very basic work functions for us at very low (per hour) prices. It frees us (and our resources) up to do other things and to create other things to do which will improve our lives and, to play off your metaphor, bake more, bigger, and better pies. We end up trading our services (meaning, our time) to the rest of the world at comparably high prices while they are trading their services (meaning, their time) to us at comparably low prices. So even though we may buy more from them than they do from us, we come out ahead in terms of (economic) quality of life impact. Being a manufacturing based economy is a step along the way for an improving (economic) prosperity society, it isn't the peak state. We have been moving beyond that step to the next one. Big picture, that's a good thing rather than a bad thing - it is to our overall benefit, not our detriment. That observation isn't about Jobs' (Apple's) so much as Walton's (Walmart's) impact. I'd make different general comments relating to the former. And, yes, there are no doubt negative impacts from the way Walmart operates. I wouldn't deny that for a second. But when it comes to the (economic) quality of life of the typical American, particularly of those nearer the lower end of the prosperity scale, Walmart is a net benefit.

Also, as for the sweatshop comment - we really need to talk about that one. :buddies:
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Well that explains it. No wonder we are all fat with all of that pie.
 

tommyjo

New Member
The Oracle sees much. He just doesn't see the obvious; supply and demand in labor is THE problem.

You'll have to read the whole thing which, I know, an American should never have to do before commenting on something but, hey, you really should.

In any event, Warren's argument is against the minimum wage and in favor of new and better tax cuts as the way to help the poor. He does this hot on the heels of expressing the concern that the Forbes 400, since it's inception a little over 30 years ago, has had it's share of wealth go from $93 billion to $2.400 trillion, up 2400%, or, about 25 times, while the median...tripled.

Understand that the comparison as stated in the article and semi recited by you is incorrect. Mr. Buffet compares net worth with income. These are not the same measures.


He says the poor are not poor because others are getting rich and this is imply not true. The pie is the pie. If the top gets 25 times more of the total than it used to, you need more pie or those lower down to get less. Period. Capitalists talk in terms of wealth creation and a better mousetrap will always have a place but, MOST of the gains at the top are paper wealth, the simple manipulation of perceived value of the labor and ideas of others to parties motivated not by the product or service but by the perception of the value of the products and services. If that was good for workers, the median, the ratio wouldn't be 25:3.

The "pie is the pie" is most definitely not true. How can you make that comment and claim to have any knowledge of economics? One of the main goals of an economic system is to increase the size of the pie...we do that thru innovation, thru productivity increases, thru having a more highly skilled workforce. The pie is most certainly not the pie.

He argues we are all better off for the Henry Fords and Jobs and Waltons but, are we? Does he ever walk around and see his fellow American's? Ford made things better for his workers; better jobs, better wages, better life. Can that be said of Jobs and Walton whose workers are in sweatshops over seas? For some, yes, spectacularly better but, again, nowhere near better for most.

Ford didn't make things better for his workers any more than Carnegie did...maybe you should study up on the working conditions in the early Ford assembly plants or Carnegie steel plants. The workers forced concessions that increased pay and reduced working hours. Lordy, you need to take your own advice and read before you comment.

It's striking to me that an icon like Buffett would not discuss the most basic principle of an economy; supply and demand, and it's impact on ability to earn.

Here again you seem to have failed your basic admonishment to everyone one. Did you read the article? Any of it? Mr. Buffet is commenting specifically on the policy of the minimum wage vs the policy of the Earned Income Tax Credit and how we can use these policies to increase the status of those who occupy the lowest rungs on our economic ladder.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
How can you make that comment and claim to have any knowledge of economics? .

Damn, Larry. I'm not going to pay attention to any of your posts ever again.


But to put a fair point on it, Paul Krugman knows nothing about economics either.
 

philibusters

Active Member
In terms of the article, I think Buffett point was that modifying the Earned Income Tax Credit is a better way to help the working poor than raising the minimum wage. I agree with that. Raising the minimum wage will cause unemployment and inflation. Modifying the EITC credit is a redistribution of wealth from society as a whole, wheras raising the minimum wage is a redistribution of wealth from employer to employee in the short term (over the long term its probably a reallocation of wealth from consumers to the employees). As the EITC better spreads out the cost of the redistribution of wealth to low wage workers, it he'll have a less dramatic effect and less negative ripples (like unemployment for low wage workers. Further its less likely to lead to inflation because it less likely to cause a chain effect of people who previously made 10% more than minimum wage demanding that they still be paid 10% above minimum wage, which would just cause those who make just a little more than them to ask for a wage increase.

In terms of Buffetts twin goal to make an economic system that allows all workers to earn a liveable wage while distorting the market as little as possible, I am not sure that is possible. I also don't buy that the wealthy necessarily "deserve" their wealth. I do think the concentration of capital make the market work more efficiently by allowing knowledgable people to get capital to the most productive people. However the word "deserve" has a moral implication to it. To me, the excessive wealth of the richest people is a natural consequence of the market and not a manipulation or cheating or stealing from the poor. But I don't feel comfortable saying they deserve that wealth. Does a football player deserve 5 million a year. Most would hesitate to say yes, but most could also agree that their salary is a natural result of market allocation and that they didn't do anything unseemingly to make that salary.
 
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Larry Gude

Strung Out
I could not disagree more. The pie is not the pie, prosperity is not a zero sum game :

Poor wording on my part. The pie is the pie at any given moment. In 1982, the pie held $93 billion for the Forbes 400. Later, it showed $2.4 trillion, a 25 fold increase at the top and 3 fold in the median. That's how I meant it. Those snapshots in time are, as you say, otherwise fluid and changeable including the creation of new wealth, etc. As he used those two points in time, I thought it worth the conversation about those two snap shots. :buddies:
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
It frees us (and our resources) up to do other things and to create other things to do which will improve our lives and, to play off your metaphor, bake more, bigger, and better pies. We end up trading our services (meaning, our time) to the rest of the world at comparably high prices while they are trading their services (meaning, their time) to us at comparably low prices. So even though we may buy more from them than they do from us, we come out ahead in terms of (economic) quality of life impact. :

Are we better off? Is Ferguson? Is Baltimore? Detroit? Chicago? California? Are our lives, in general, better?

One of the most poignant bits of video I've ever seen was of RFK campaign visiting a very poor black town in Mississippi. They were DIRT poor. Dirt roads, tin roofs, barefoot kids and they all looked...happy and healthy and together. I'm not advocating for the black town of 1967 Mississippi as the model to emulate. I am more comparing that to the model of 2015 Baltimore, Detroit, Chicago, etc.

I don't know how far we'd agree on how well that success at the top has served and promoted the general welfare. Health, fitness, family, lifestyle.
 
Larry - I just got around to reading that piece you linked to. (Don't scold me, I had anticipated that it would be a longer piece than it was and figured I'd get around to it when I got around to it. And, anyway, I didn't need to read it to begin responding to your own thoughts. Frankly, for the purposes of our discussions here your own thoughts - and those of others here - are more relevant to me than the thoughts of, e.g., Mr. Buffett, even though his thoughts and those of other notables may serve as jump off points for us discussing our own thoughts.)

Anyway, I think he was mostly dead-on-balls in that piece. And I thought he did a pretty good job of expressing the thoughts he was trying to share in that piece, though he obviously (like most people) has plenty of other thoughts that he could or does share at other times. He's right that the poor aren't poor because the rich are rich (other than if we're just thinking about such things definitionally, in relative terms), I think it would be fairer (and demonstrate greater big picture awareness) to observe that they're still poor in spite of the rich being rich. And I think he's right that raising the minimum raise to something like $15 is not the way to help the poorest among us, that it's likely to hurt them more than help them.

But the main thing I wanted to added after having read Mr. Buffett's piece is this: He may not have used the words you're looking for, he may not have explicitly referred to the supply (of) and demand (for) labor. But they are at the core of his point, affecting those dynamics is in large part what he's talking about. He's comparing the wisdom of different policies with a major implication of that comparison (I'd say the primary implication of it) being how those respective policies would impact the supply of and the demand for labor. You guys are basically on the same side of the argument there I think. He of course understands how the demand for labor plays into overall economic conditions and the prosperity of typical Americans. He wasn't ignoring that, that's part of what he was getting at. He just didn't feel the need to come out and say - oh, by the way and in case you don't get my point, raising the minimum wage will reduce the demand for the labor of the very people that are most needy. He referred to that effect (as well as others) more generally as distorting markets. It's, more or less, what the following means.

That second goal crumbles in the face of any plan to sizably increase the minimum wage. I may wish to have all jobs pay at least $15 an hour. But that minimum would almost certainly reduce employment in a major way, crushing many workers possessing only basic skills. Smaller increases, though obviously welcome, will still leave many hardworking Americans mired in poverty.
 
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GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Ford didn't make things better for his workers ...maybe you should study up on the working conditions in the early Ford assembly plants or Carnegie steel plants.




you ofc can point to some scholarly work on the matter ?


while there are no mentions of work conditions this does mention labor unrest in 1914 and 5 day / 8hr days

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-factory-workers-get-40-hour-week

On this day in 1926, Ford Motor Company becomes one of the first companies in America to adopt a five-day, 40-hour week for workers in its automotive factories. The policy would be extended to Ford’s office workers the following August.

Henry Ford’s Detroit-based automobile company had broken ground in its labor policies before. In early 1914, against a backdrop of widespread unemployment and increasing labor unrest, Ford announced that it would pay its male factory workers a minimum wage of $5 per eight-hour day, upped from a previous rate of $2.34 for nine hours (the policy was adopted for female workers in 1916). The news shocked many in the industry–at the time, $5 per day was nearly double what the average auto worker made–but turned out to be a stroke of brilliance, immediately boosting productivity along the assembly line and building a sense of company loyalty and pride among Ford’s workers.




if History.com is not good enough, please provide your own data ... but something other than CWP or UAW propaganda
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Other than those jobs not going to Americans, why nothing at all.

so if it is sold in America, it should be built in America ? - how nationalistic of you

can you name an electronic device built in America in since the 1980's ?
not assembled from parts [major sub assemblies] built elsewhere ...
 
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