Salvation--a real dialogue

onel0126

Bead mumbler
I was at a forum several weeks ago attended by Christians of all faith backgrounds. The topic of salvation came up. As I sat there and listened to two Protestant pastors (both with theology degrees from legit colleges) and some Protestants in the audience an interesting turn of events happened.

They like most Protestants I know believe that there is only one way to salvation--saved through Christ as they would say the Bible says. A woman who identified herself as Catholic in the audience stood up and asked a few questions regarding this. She tried to prod them into saying that perhaps through God's grace others could be saved. Scripture was quoted back to her assuring her that no, one way to the Father--through the Son.

I was praying since she already identified herself as Catholic that she was not going to say something insanely stupid like what about the natives of Papua New Guinea who...

Instead, she introduced her 21 year old daughter with severe Downs Syndrome. She said this is Mary, my daughter who is indeed saved. She proceeded to ask both Pastors if they disagreed. Crickets from the audience. After doing their best imitation of josh earnest and jay carney, the Pastors kindly wrapped things up with a prayer and asked to pray with the woman afterwards.

Anyone here wanna be more brave than the Pastors?
 
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Chuckt

Guest
I was at a forum several weeks ago attended by Christians of all faith backgrounds. The topic of salvation came up. As I sat there and listened to two Protestant pastors (both with theology degrees from legit colleges) and some Protestants in the audience an interesting turn of events happened.

They like most Protestants I know believe that there is only one way to salvation--saved through Christ as they would say the Bible says. A woman who identified herself as Catholic in the audience stood up and asked a few questions regarding this. She tried to prod them into saying that perhaps through God's grace others could be saved. Scripture was quoted back to her assuring her that no, one way to the Father--through the Son.

I was praying since she already identified herself as Catholic that she was not going to say something insanely stupid like what about the natives of Papua New Guinea who...

Instead, she introduced her 21 year old daughter with severe Downs Syndrome. She said this is Mary, my daughter who is indeed saved. She proceeded to ask both Pastors if they disagreed. Crickets from the audience. After doing their best imitation of josh earnest and jay carney, the Pastors kindly wrapped things up with a prayer and asked to pray with the woman afterwards.

Anyone here wanna be more brave than the Pastors?

My neighbor had a vision of Jesus, she believed, was baptized and I believe she went to heaven. I will trust Jesus in regard to the man on the island that never heard. They are only responsible for the amount of light they were given.

As far as there is no way to the Father except through the son, if you are trusting in 1% of works then you really aren't going through Jesus but yourself because you don't trust Jesus to save to the uttermost. Jesus is the gate and all those who climb into the sheep fold some other way are thieves and robbers (scriptural answer - not trying to be uncivil towards you).
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
My neighbor had a vision of Jesus, she believed, was baptized and I believe she went to heaven. I will trust Jesus in regard to the man on the island that never heard. They are only responsible for the amount of light they were given. As far as there is no way to the Father except through the son, if you are trusting in 1% of works then you really aren't going through Jesus but yourself because you don't trust Jesus to save to the uttermost. Jesus is the gate and all those who climb into the sheep fold some other way are thieves and robbers (scriptural answer - not trying to be uncivil towards you).

Your answer (to me) is the poster argument against sola scripture--you don't even believe in it! Is not the Bible clear about the only way? Trusting in God is great--but to me that is an addition to scripture as far as salvation goes-how beautifully Catholic!
 
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Chuckt

Guest
One, the may have an easier time because they have went to seminary and have access to a lot of books and materials.
I appreciate them and I've learned some things from the reformers that I like and hold dear to me.

But make no mistake. I know more Bible and have the ability to do corrections to the theology of a lot of pastors. Other people I know help their pastor because they've memorized 8,000 verses. I'll go to God and then the Holy Spirit will give me the answer from the Word. I have my own library and will buy whatever books I need to stay on top of research. I look everything up and don't make assumptions and I'm still looking for verses that I know are in there. I'll spend 300 hours on one heresy to topple it and I have the idea that some ideas take hundreds of hours to topple. A handful of pastors know what I can do and I'm not anybody. I'm hoping that Jesus will give me a Ph.D. for being astute in His word for what He helped me with. I only trust about two dead pastors of old commentaries who haven't lied to me and they can't lie to me on the current heresies because ummm.... They can't lie to me about stuff today because they're dead.

Jesus compared His word to the rock so I go by the Bible because everyone else's words is shifting sand and then the rains will descend and the storm will come and the only thing left standing will be what God said.
 

Zguy28

New Member
This is from theologian Daniel Akin. I've attached the whole manuscript if you want to read it.

Exclusivism is the teaching that has been held by the church for most of its history. It is the orthodox, evangelical position which teaches that salvation comes only through a personal faith commitment to Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.This does not include those who never reach an age of moral responsibility and accountability such as infants, small children, or those who are incapable of moral discernment, such as mentally handicapped people. Evangelicals have generally held the view that these individuals are the objects of God’s saving grace and mercy. But exclusivism does affirm the absolute uniqueness and finality of God’s revelation in Jesus. He alone is the one and only Savior, as taught in John 14:6; Acts 4:12; 1 Timothy 2:5. It is only in Him that one can be saved. God would not have sent His only Son to die on a cross if He could have saved us by some other means. The cross of Christ is God’s great testimony that Jesus is the exclusive way to the Father.
 

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Chuckt

Guest
This is from theologian Daniel Akin. I've attached the whole manuscript if you want to read it.

Except that it is a misrepresentation of what evangelicals believe.

This does not include those who never reach an age of moral responsibility and accountability such as infants, small children, or those who are incapable of moral discernment, such as mentally handicapped people.

Not true.

King James Bible
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
http://biblehub.com/romans/9-15.htm

Notice that the author used the word exclusivism. Exclusivists may only be a part of teachers and not all teachers so you can't speak for all Evangelicals and then qualify your comments which is doublespeak and dishonest.
 

Zguy28

New Member
Except that it is a misrepresentation of what evangelicals believe.



Not true.

King James Bible
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
http://biblehub.com/romans/9-15.htm

Notice that the author used the word exclusivism. Exclusivists may only be a part of teachers and not all teachers so you can't speak for all Evangelicals and then qualify your comments which is doublespeak and dishonest.
You have no idea what you are talking about. I have no idea what you are talking about.
 

hotcoffee

New Member
I was at a forum several weeks ago attended by Christians of all faith backgrounds. The topic of salvation came up. As I sat there and listened to two Protestant pastors (both with theology degrees from legit colleges) and some Protestants in the audience an interesting turn of events happened.

They like most Protestants I know believe that there is only one way to salvation--saved through Christ as they would say the Bible says. A woman who identified herself as Catholic in the audience stood up and asked a few questions regarding this. She tried to prod them into saying that perhaps through God's grace others could be saved. Scripture was quoted back to her assuring her that no, one way to the Father--through the Son.

I was praying since she already identified herself as Catholic that she was not going to say something insanely stupid like what about the natives of Papua New Guinea who...

Instead, she introduced her 21 year old daughter with severe Downs Syndrome. She said this is Mary, my daughter who is indeed saved. She proceeded to ask both Pastors if they disagreed. Crickets from the audience. After doing their best imitation of josh earnest and jay carney, the Pastors kindly wrapped things up with a prayer and asked to pray with the woman afterwards.

Anyone here wanna be more brave than the Pastors?

God doesn't act in a box. We'd like to think that Salvation is only attainable through pre-scripted verses chanted in front of a congregation or gathering. It makes it easy to understand. Salvation is a personal action. It's between Jesus and the person receiving Salvation.

A person who cannot communicate openly, as most humans do, is not doomed. Jesus talked to everyone. Even the disciples spoke in tongues through the Holy Spirit.

God doesn't act in a box. I'm sure Salvation is not hindered by Downs Syndrome. Jesus walked on water.... surely He has the capacity to enter a personal relationship with anyone He chooses at any time He chooses. Those pastors just couldn't explain it because it doesn't fit in the box that humans put God in.

Or that's my take anyway....

:coffee:
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
God doesn't act in a box.

BINGO! People sure like to place God into their own little box; one that fits their thinking. Then use that to judge others.

People sure spend a lot of effort vilifying each other rather than reaching out. With all that was going wrong with man in those days, God still reached out. If works or baptism or confessions to God did the trick, there would be no need for a Savior. Jesus is the salvation for those who can and do accept Him, and for those who can’t. When I read all of the back-and-forth I think of this verse:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.” – Matthew 23:13
 

onel0126

Bead mumbler
BINGO! People sure like to place God into their own little box; one that fits their thinking. Then use that to judge others.
Oh please, you're not above this. Your bad experiences with organized religion have lead you to lead the "go it alone cause church ain't a building" campaign.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Oh please, you're not above this. Your bad experiences with organized religion have lead you to lead the "go it alone cause church ain't a building" campaign.

What does religion have to do with my comments? I don't hold contempt or condemnation with individuals. I have ALWAYS stated that it's God job to judge each of us. I believe the institution of 'churches' have lost their way in the weeds of massive power and money. I have my opinions about them and hold these institutions in pretty low regard; but this doesn't come close to me believing because you go to this or that church that you're not saved.
 
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hotcoffee

New Member
Although I'm sure One0123 wasn't directing that last comment to me.... I have been thinking about this thread for a while. The other night I was thinking about how God can do anything and I was reminded of the story in Ezekiel 37.

In Ezekiel 37 God took Ezekiel to a Valley full of dried up bones. Then God asked Ezekiel a question.

Ezekiel 37:3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

God took all those bones and made a living army out of them. We sometimes forget just how powerful our God is.

I'm sure the Son of God is equally [if not more so] powerful.

I'm sure bringing Salvation to Mary, the woman with Downs Syndrome, is a piece of cake for the Son of God.

It's not about religion.... it's about faith....

Luke 17:6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you.

:coffee:
 
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onel0126

Bead mumbler
Although I'm sure One0123 wasn't directing that last comment to me.... I have been thinking about this thread for a while. The other night I was thinking about how God can do anything and I was reminded of the story in Ezekiel 37. In Ezekiel 37 God took Ezekiel to a Valley full of dried up bones. Then God asked Ezekiel a question. Ezekiel 37:3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” God took all those bones and made a living army out of them. We sometimes forget just how powerful our God is. I'm sure the Son of God is equally [if not more so] powerful. I'm sure bringing Salvation to Mary, the woman with Downs Syndrome, is a piece of cake for the Son of God. It's not about religion.... it's about faith.... Luke 17:6 He replied, “If you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be uprooted and planted in the sea,’ and it will obey you. :coffee:

You are correct it was directed toward Psy. Your observations above HC, are great. This, along with 500 years of attempts to say that all we need to know about God is contained in one book has to make any rational, intellectually honest person believe that sola scriptura is a man-made attempt to limit God's awesomeness to what we can understand! And therein lies the problem for Protestants...once you start questioning the solas....
 
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Dondi

Dondi
"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." - Acts 17:26-28


According to the verse above, it's not in incumbent for someone born in non-Christian country to find the Lord, as these Greeks were. God places us exactly where he wants us.


"Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:"- Isaiah 59:1


I have to believe God would make some kind of concession to those whom the Gospel is not readily at hand. But what does the scripture say?


"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." - Romans 10:17-18
 
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Chuckt

Guest
You are correct it was directed toward Psy. Your observations above HC, are great. This, along with 500 years of attempts to say that all we need to know about God is contained in one book has to make any rational, intellectually honest person believe that sola scriptura is a man-made attempt to limit God's awesomeness to what we can understand! And therein lies the problem for Protestants...once you start questioning the solas....

And without the scriptures, all you have is the religions of the world so if you reject the scriptures then you can't limit joining Islam and Catholicism.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
And without the scriptures, all you have is the religions of the world so if you reject the scriptures then you can't limit joining Islam and Catholicism.

Hey...and Druidism. Don't forget us. And we got a big head start on all those other guys. :howdy:
 
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Chuckt

Guest
Hey...and Druidism. Don't forget us. And we got a big head start on all those other guys. :howdy:

Oh I won't forget you.
Catholicism is universalism except when they don't tolerate Christianity or the scriptures.
 
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