Skin's '15...

Larry Gude

Strung Out
...Ok, so, I'm a sucker. :shrug:

Today is the first day in several years, that I actually see reason for optimism; the O and D lines.

Most football people ALL say the same thing; you build a winning football team from the lines out. Peyton, Brady, Wilson, Big Ben, Flacco, in this QB era, NONE of them win WITHOUT at least GOOD lines, D and O, and great lines give decent QB's a chance. You can't win with great LB's, secondary and O skill people either absent at least good lines. The best LB does not make his line better. The best safety, running back, WR, none of them make lines better. It seems obvious but not so's you notice in Ashburn the last 20 year or so.

So, the Skins, Since Gibbs II, have had average at best to poor lines. In football, it's a force multiplier, both ways. It makes average units better or good ones worse. So, that's it. It ALL begins, and ends, with the lines.

Right now, the Skins look like the have solid starters on both sides and some depth which is critical. You can't have a couple stars and then hacks and no depth. You CAN have a bunch of above average guys and some depth.

This means, whatever our LB's turn out to be, they're a little better. Maybe a good bit better. A few more tackles for a loss per game. Another sack or two. And the DB's, with better line AND LB's, they become better, too. Add in a pic, a batted ball, forced incomplete. Same thing on O. If it helps Robert make a couple more plays, that turns the momentum. Momentum turns a couple MORE plays, confidence grows. Coaches can get a little more out of players and plays. That whole thing feeds on itself. Then, you get guys believing. You suddenly get lucky and that compounds the thing your way.

It is obviously way too early but if these two lines turn out to be solid to pretty darn good, this team is 8-8, easy. For most teams, that's never unrealistic. Even bad ones turn around quick. Not us. Maybe Mc however it's spelled actually has the team focused on the basics; build the lines FIRST.
 

Grumpy

Well-Known Member
...Ok, so, I'm a sucker. :shrug:

Today is the first day in several years, that I actually see reason for optimism; the O and D lines.

Most football people ALL say the same thing; you build a winning football team from the lines out. Peyton, Brady, Wilson, Big Ben, Flacco, in this QB era, NONE of them win WITHOUT at least GOOD lines, D and O, and great lines give decent QB's a chance. You can't win with great LB's, secondary and O skill people either absent at least good lines. The best LB does not make his line better. The best safety, running back, WR, none of them make lines better. It seems obvious but not so's you notice in Ashburn the last 20 year or so.

So, the Skins, Since Gibbs II, have had average at best to poor lines. In football, it's a force multiplier, both ways. It makes average units better or good ones worse. So, that's it. It ALL begins, and ends, with the lines.

Right now, the Skins look like the have solid starters on both sides and some depth which is critical. You can't have a couple stars and then hacks and no depth. You CAN have a bunch of above average guys and some depth.

This means, whatever our LB's turn out to be, they're a little better. Maybe a good bit better. A few more tackles for a loss per game. Another sack or two. And the DB's, with better line AND LB's, they become better, too. Add in a pic, a batted ball, forced incomplete. Same thing on O. If it helps Robert make a couple more plays, that turns the momentum. Momentum turns a couple MORE plays, confidence grows. Coaches can get a little more out of players and plays. That whole thing feeds on itself. Then, you get guys believing. You suddenly get lucky and that compounds the thing your way.

It is obviously way too early but if these two lines turn out to be solid to pretty darn good, this team is 8-8, easy. For most teams, that's never unrealistic. Even bad ones turn around quick. Not us. Maybe Mc however it's spelled actually has the team focused on the basics; build the lines FIRST.

Still need to have an average to good QB starting; as things stand now, they have a no-reading, all-about-me injury-prone starter. I could see 8-8, 9-7 with Cousins, but not with Robert. They need to move on from RG3. Last year for the heck of it, I checked Cousins' numbers against all better-than-good QBs in their rookie/initial starts, very little difference. Totally my opinion, just a fan, but RG3 will never learn to read a defense and even if he does become a little bit proficient at it, there's always the specter of another serious injury (which will happen with his legs). Skins need to get out of the RG3 business, money spent, lesson learned for the nth time.
 

Monello

Smarter than the average bear
PREMO Member
7 wins in the last 2 years. Anything over 5 wins would be an improvement.
 

Beta

Smile!
Good QBs can make a line look better than it is. Big Ben, for instance. I haven't checked the past couple seasons, but he's usually one of the most hit (if not sacked) QBs in the league. The best QBs get the ball away before the defense can apply pressure. Having a good line can prop up a mediocre QB, but a bad QB can still carry a team that has a mediocre/bad OL. You really think all of those QBs were consistently good because they always had a good/great OL, but then all of those crappy QBs have been consistently bad because they have a bad OL? Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and others would be fine if their lines were only OK.

I do agree though -- the lines are a huge piece of the game and their success can make everyone else more effective. But you can't underestimate the value of a great QB.

I'm curious: Considering how bad the lines were last season...what changed? How have they improved lately? I don't see that much movement but my mind could be changed.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Good QBs can make a line look better than it is. Big Ben, for instance. I haven't checked the past couple seasons, but he's usually one of the most hit (if not sacked) QBs in the league. The best QBs get the ball away before the defense can apply pressure. Having a good line can prop up a mediocre QB, but a bad QB can still carry a team that has a mediocre/bad OL. You really think all of those QBs were consistently good because they always had a good/great OL, but then all of those crappy QBs have been consistently bad because they have a bad OL? Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and others would be fine if their lines were only OK.

I do agree though -- the lines are a huge piece of the game and their success can make everyone else more effective. But you can't underestimate the value of a great QB.

I'm curious: Considering how bad the lines were last season...what changed? How have they improved lately? I don't see that much movement but my mind could be changed.

Ben is his own category. No one can take the pounding he does and keep going. Heck, he can't!

Peyton Manning would NOT be fine with an average line. Just wouldn't. Nor would he be fine with average skill people. Same with Brady and Rogers. None of those guys takes the Redskins of the last two seasons to the playoffs let alone the SB. Would we be better with them? Yes but only so much. 7-9? 8-8? MAYBE 9, MAYBE a Wild Card? Highly doubtful.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Still need to have an average to good QB starting; as things stand now, they have a no-reading, all-about-me injury-prone starter. I could see 8-8, 9-7 with Cousins, but not with Robert. They need to move on from RG3. Last year for the heck of it, I checked Cousins' numbers against all better-than-good QBs in their rookie/initial starts, very little difference. Totally my opinion, just a fan, but RG3 will never learn to read a defense and even if he does become a little bit proficient at it, there's always the specter of another serious injury (which will happen with his legs). Skins need to get out of the RG3 business, money spent, lesson learned for the nth time.

The problem is, A, you're right and B, so am I. So, the Skins WILL get to 7, 8 or 9 wins AND stick with Robert. :lmao:
 

PeoplesElbow

Well-Known Member
I think they are going to have one hell of a year, they might even win 7 games if some luck falls their way!
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I think they are going to have one hell of a year, they might even win 7 games if some luck falls their way!

I go online and buy ONE freaking motorcycle tire and now I am being FOLLOWED around the forums by motorcycle tire ads... WTF?????????????????

In any event, IF the lines are above average, they should win 7 and have a chance to do a little better. I mean, I hate letting myself get sucked into this but 6, 7 wins COULD become 8, 9, with a play or two a game going their way.
 

PeoplesElbow

Well-Known Member
I go online and buy ONE freaking motorcycle tire and now I am being FOLLOWED around the forums by motorcycle tire ads... WTF?????????????????

In any event, IF the lines are above average, they should win 7 and have a chance to do a little better. I mean, I hate letting myself get sucked into this but 6, 7 wins COULD become 8, 9, with a play or two a game going their way.

Don't get your hopes up.

An old guy on a woodworking forum I frequent asked why was he getting women's lingerie ads the other day and nobody has told him just posted LOL.
 

jg21

Member
ohh Larry...If this team goes 8-8, I'll buy you a beer. Even though I don't know you outside these forums. Even though I believe you may live in the Frederick area...
 

Grumpy

Well-Known Member
ohh Larry...If this team goes 8-8, I'll buy you a beer. Even though I don't know you outside these forums. Even though I believe you may live in the Frederick area...

No worries, just buy it and I will take it to him. Since he gave up TV, he's hard to find, but I know the rock he likes to sit on while he ponders the universe.
 

Beta

Smile!
Ben is his own category. No one can take the pounding he does and keep going. Heck, he can't!

Peyton Manning would NOT be fine with an average line. Just wouldn't. Nor would he be fine with average skill people. Same with Brady and Rogers. None of those guys takes the Redskins of the last two seasons to the playoffs let alone the SB. Would we be better with them? Yes but only so much. 7-9? 8-8? MAYBE 9, MAYBE a Wild Card? Highly doubtful.

You're saying that Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, and Manning (with a team change, no less) have always had elite skill players and an elite OL? That's why they're so dominant?

So who have been Brady's elite skill people over the past 5 years? He has one player: Gronkowski. That's it.
Name one skill player that Wilson has thrown to that would start anywhere else in the NFL. He just got one in Jimmy Graham, but it'll be his first.
Everyone Rodgers has thrown to seems to not do nearly as well once they leave Green Bay. And he always seems to have 2-3 "elite" receivers at his disposal. Do they leave for big paydays and have their production plummet because they're no longer elite?

I could keep going. There is always flux in the NFL: the same few teams aren't always going to have top skill players and a top OL matched with a top QB. The top QBs just demand too much money to make it feasible. Some years, those guys might have good OLs or good skill players, but other years it doesn't happen. However, a good QB can make the OL and skill players look better than they are. If you're a threat to throw, it opens up running lanes. If you take care of the ball and don't hold on to it too long, there aren't as many sacks. As long as the receiver can catch the ball, QBs can throw them open. You're seriously understating the importance of a QB. There's a reason they get PAID. It's because a good QB can fix so many problems on a team.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
You're saying that Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, and Manning (with a team change, no less) have always had elite skill players and an elite OL? That's why they're so dominant? I thought I granted that they alone make any team better, including us but how much? Manning didn't win his SB until he had Bob Sanders on the D. And they do make team mates better as well.

So who have been Brady's elite skill people over the past 5 years? He has one player: Gronkowski. That's it. Has he not had a very good line? Has he not had the best coaching there is? Cassel won 11 games that Brady injury year.
Name one skill player that Wilson has thrown to that would start anywhere else in the NFL. He just got one in Jimmy Graham, but it'll be his first.And he's had a great O line and perhaps the best D
Everyone Rodgers has thrown to seems to not do nearly as well once they leave Green Bay. And he always seems to have 2-3 "elite" receivers at his disposal. Do they leave for big paydays and have their production plummet because they're no longer elite? A football team is a collection of parts, agreed? Rogers IS elite. He DOES make WR's better but they also make him better when the O line is better, the D is better, special teams is better, it all works to make the whole better than the sum of the parts. And He, too has had great coaching.

I could keep going. There is always flux in the NFL: the same few teams aren't always going to have top skill players and a top OL matched with a top QB. The top QBs just demand too much money to make it feasible. Some years, those guys might have good OLs or good skill players, but other years it doesn't happen. If Manning comes here instead of Denver we would not have made a trip to the Super bowl. However, a good QB can make the OL and skill players look better than they are. If you're a threat to throw, it opens up running lanes. Absolutely If you take care of the ball and don't hold on to it too long, there aren't as many sacks. agreed As long as the receiver can catch the ball, QBs can throw them open. You're seriously understating the importance of a QB. There's a reason they get PAID. It's because a good QB can fix so many problems on a team.

I don't mean to understate it but it is NOT final. Peyton Manning has ONE super bowl. His brother, nowhere near his regular season equal has two because of outstanding defense, good O line, decent skill people and good coaching. Switch them and Peyton maybe has 3 SB wins and Eli has none. It's not JUST the QB.


And this is why I'm getting a little excited about this season; IF the D and O lines are a good bit above average Robert will have a good season and maybe we make it to .500 or so and there will be talk of how he matured and started getting it and there will be some truth to it BUT the truth is it is in context of team. If Robert wins 8-9 games, Peyton maybe wins 9-10 but he doesn't win a SB with this team and neither does anyone else. Not this year.

:buddies:
 

Beta

Smile!
I don't mean to understate it but it is NOT final. Peyton Manning has ONE super bowl. His brother, nowhere near his regular season equal has two because of outstanding defense, good O line, decent skill people and good coaching. Switch them and Peyton maybe has 3 SB wins and Eli has none. It's not JUST the QB.


And this is why I'm getting a little excited about this season; IF the D and O lines are a good bit above average Robert will have a good season and maybe we make it to .500 or so and there will be talk of how he matured and started getting it and there will be some truth to it BUT the truth is it is in context of team. If Robert wins 8-9 games, Peyton maybe wins 9-10 but he doesn't win a SB with this team and neither does anyone else. Not this year.

:buddies:

Fair enough. You initially made it sound like the best QBs are only the best because of their lines. But as you said by comparing Eli and Peyton, Eli may not be as good but he won more because of the overall team effort. There are many parts to a team, but without a good QB you're usually dead in the water these days. But if the Skins have good lines and RGIII doesn't feel the need to run away, he WILL get better. And if they have a good DL, it sets up the rest of the defense. Line play is very important. I can definitely agree with that!
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Fair enough. You initially made it sound like the best QBs are only the best because of their lines. But as you said by comparing Eli and Peyton, Eli may not be as good but he won more because of the overall team effort. There are many parts to a team, but without a good QB you're usually dead in the water these days. But if the Skins have good lines and RGIII doesn't feel the need to run away, he WILL get better. And if they have a good DL, it sets up the rest of the defense. Line play is very important. I can definitely agree with that!

Yup, that's what I meant. It's that force multiplier thing of team sports whereby a guy who is perceived to be a 7 on a 10 scale among his peers maybe become an 8 or 9 with the right team and coaching and something less elsewhere. Peyton could perhaps have not won 4 games last year for us if he's getting knocked around, no time to even get rid of it, hurt, etc. One of the problems he presented for the Colts over the years is not being a ball control kind of QB who needed to be throwing a good bit and if that means 3 and outs instead of touchdowns, that makes a '7' defense all of a sudden a '6' or worse.
 
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