Punishment at word of life church results in death

[Radiant1]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/nyregion/lucas-leonard-beating-death-at-upstate-new-york-church.html?_r=0

NEW HARTFORD, N.Y. — To its neighbors in this upstate town, Word of Life Christian Church presented itself as a constant curiosity: an imposing but tidy former schoolhouse whose occupants kept to themselves, almost never opening their doors or their mouths, secluded behind a closed entrance.

Over the last three days, however, the inner life of that secretive sect suddenly spilled into the outside world. On Sunday evening, the authorities said, two teenagers — brothers and the sons of two members of Word of Life — were called into a sanctuary and savagely beaten by at least a half-dozen people, including their parents and older half sister.

“Both brothers were continually subjected to physical punishment over the course of several hours, in hopes that each would confess to prior sins and ask for forgiveness,” Chief Michael S. Inserra of the New Hartford Police Department said at a news conference on Wednesday.

It is not clear what those sins were, but for several hours, into Monday morning, punches and kicks landed on the brothers’ stomachs, genitals, backs and thighs, as the so-called counseling session turned into a case of manslaughter and assault.

The Rev. Abraham L. Esper, the pastor at St. Patrick’s-St. Anthony’s Roman Catholic Church next door, said he periodically heard church members playing drums or saw them doing work in the yard or on the roof, often with children in tow.

At the front door of Word of God, several Bible verses were posted, including one from the book of I John: “God is Light, in Him is no darkness at all.”

Like many here, Mr. Esper rejected the assertion that the Word of God was a real church.

“This is not of God,” he said of the activities next door. “If this was of God, there would be growth. Not destruction.”

My opinion -- I agree with the priest, this was obviously not of God; however, I'd be willing to bet that the members of Word of Life certainly thought it was, they felt justified by scripture, and that their interpretation of scripture was absolutely correct. This is the kind of crap that happens when everyone is their own authority on scripture as per Protestant doctrine.

 

[inkah]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/nyregion/lucas-leonard-beating-death-at-upstate-new-york-church.html?_r=0

My opinion -- I agree with the priest, this was obviously not of God; however, I'd be willing to bet that the members of Word of Life certainly thought it was, they felt justified by scripture, and that their interpretation of scripture was absolutely correct. This is the kind of crap that happens when everyone is their own authority on scripture as per Protestant doctrine.

Ah yes, the Protty's are to blame. What're you, the ChuckT in Catholic?

 

[Gilligan]

Cage Match, anyone?

 

[PeoplesElbow]

The catholic church has never done anything wrong.

 

[Chuckt]

My opinion -- I agree with the priest, this was obviously not of God; however, I'd be willing to bet that the members of Word of Life certainly thought it was, they felt justified by scripture, and that their interpretation of scripture was absolutely correct. This is the kind of crap that happens when everyone is their own authority on scripture as per Protestant doctrine.

You really are desperate to blame someone.

 

[b23hqb]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/15/nyregion/lucas-leonard-beating-death-at-upstate-new-york-church.html?_r=0

My opinion -- I agree with the priest, this was obviously not of God; however, I'd be willing to bet that the members of Word of Life certainly thought it was, they felt justified by scripture, and that their interpretation of scripture was absolutely correct. This is the kind of crap that happens when everyone is their own authority on scripture as per Protestant doctrine. [/QUOTE}]

You just displayed your pompous, arrogant arse quite well. Tell me, please, about the perfect rcc, where nothing bad, illegal, immoral, or just plain sick, has ever happened, following your biblical doctrine(partial) and man-made doctrine (at least as partial). No Christian abides by what happened as legitimate discipline at that meeting. BTW, how many young boys and men have committed suicide from being raped and abused, under the premise of god, and/or suffered incurable mental illnesses? How many of your dioceses' are now in bankruptcy because of church actions?

A fine display, radi. Are you going to meet them and find out what the betting line is? Ya'll could run a side game during your bingo nights.

 

[PsyOps]

Will you folks admit that this sort of occurrence is the exception and not the rule?

 

[b23hqb]

Will you folks admit that this sort of occurrence is the exception and not the rule?[/QU

Yes, I will. This "punishment" has nothing to do with Christian principles at all. Just plain meanness by vindictive sub human activity.

 

[Radiant1]

Ah yes, the Protty's are to blame. What're you, the ChuckT in Catholic?

Not quite. I wasn't blaming Protestantism as a whole for these peoples personal crimes. What I am suggesting is that the sola scriptura doctrine of Protestantism allows for such extreme views.

You really are desperate to blame someone.

I blame those who are guilty of the crime, don't you?

Will you folks admit that this sort of occurrence is the exception and not the rule?

Yes, absolutely.

 

[Radiant1]

Yes, I will. This "punishment" has nothing to do with Christian principles at all. Just plain meanness by vindictive sub human activity.

But see that's just it, b23. If you believe that everyone can interpret for themselves and these people interpret as to justify their actions (spare the rod spoil the child and all that), then how can you rightly say they are wrong?

 

[cheezgrits]

You really are desperate to blame someone.

You, of all people, should just keep silent on this one.

 

[PsyOps]

But see that's just it, b23. If you believe that everyone can interpret for themselves and these people interpret as to justify their actions (spare the rod spoil the child and all that), then how can you rightly say they are wrong?

I think most of us are able to conclude where using the 'rod' crosses over into abuse; abuse that God would frown on. Before wielding such a rod, one better reflect on whether they are fit to 'cast that first stone'; and to what degree. I think most of us can rationally determine where biblical applications end and criminal behavior begins.

 

[Amused_despair]

Good people claim to be religious, bad people claim to be religious, good people claim to be atheists, bad people claim to be atheists. No matter what, bacon is good, despite what the Koran and Old Testament say.

 

[Radiant1]

I think most of us are able to conclude where using the 'rod' crosses over into abuse; abuse that God would frown on. Before wielding such a rod, one better reflect on whether they are fit to 'cast that first stone'; and to what degree. I think most of us can rationally determine where biblical applications end and criminal behavior begins.

But where you think it begins and ends may be different than someone else thinks via their own interpretation, and they are certainly entitled to their interpretation as per sola scriptura. I'm just pointing out the issues with the doctrine and using this as an extreme example of such.



No matter what the dialogue/debate/bludgeoning is between Catholics and Protestants the bottom line ALWAYS comes down to authority to interpret scripture. I was raised Protestant and as a young adult had a metanoia, or "born-again" experience if you will, that sent me searching and researching. It was this very issue, authority, that led me to look at Catholicism a bit closer, and of course after wading through all the original Greek and Latin texts of Matthew I came to the conclusion that Jesus knew there needed to be an earthly authority and therefore established it. This authority is why when a Catholic commits a crime Catholics can very easily say with certainty "that isn't Christian behavior". To this very day, I still see the lack of earthly authority as a major stumbling block for Protestantism. To use scripture to interpret scripture is circular logic at it's best and leaves a quagmire of various Christian beliefs opening the door for extreme views ala Word of Life, Jim Jones, David Koresh, etc. and there is not one person or group within Protestantism with authority to say that these people are wrong. Well, you can do so, but it won't mean anything.

I see the same issue with Islam. Why don't peaceful Muslims speak out against their more radical brothers/sisters? Because they can't, they are all free to interpret the Quar'an as they wish so they can't rightly do so. Well, they can do so, but it won't mean jack without any authority to back them up.



But at any rate, such a thing as what these people did is a travesty, just like any other travesty committed in the name of God no matter who may have done it.

 

[cheezgrits]

Good people claim to be religious, bad people claim to be religious, good people claim to be atheists, bad people claim to be atheists. No matter what, bacon is good, despite what the Koran and Old Testament say.

Truth.

 

[PsyOps]

But where you think it begins and ends may be different than someone else thinks via their own interpretation, and they are certainly entitled to their interpretation as per sola scriptura. I'm just pointing out the issues with the doctrine and using this as an extreme example of such.

I’m trying to keep my comments in the realm of how MOST Christians think. Certainly the level of discipline each of us may apply to our children is going to be different; where I might spank, you might use the ‘timeout’ in the corner. I think most rational people would agree that if I spank my child a couple of times they wouldn’t give it much thought. But if I start to draw blood or leave bruises, most would see this as crossing the line into abuse. To get a gang of folks together to beat someone for ‘sinning’, even if for a few minutes (let alone hours) – I can’t imagine any rational person seeing this as acceptable. I don’t even see it as any church’s job to institute any sort of physical punishment for 'sinning'. Suspend or expel them from the church. Counsel them. It should never be the place of a church to physically punish someone for ‘sinning’.

 

[Chuckt]

You, of all people, should just keep silent on this one.

The Rev. Abraham Esper of St. Patrick's-St. Anthony's Church in Chadwicks told CNN that Word of Life was not a "mainline" church and members had little interaction with neighbors.

Responding to a reporter's question, Inserra said he had no information about whether the group is a cult.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/14/us/new-york-church-assault-case/

I should keep silent? CNN reports that they aren't a mainline Church and some question whether they are in a cult.
It seems that my values are more in line with the CNN article than yours or the others who commented or posted on this.

 

[Amused_despair]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/14/us/new-york-church-assault-case/

I should keep silent? CNN reports that they aren't a mainline Church and some question whether they are in a cult.
It seems that my values are more in line with the CNN article than yours or the others who commented or posted on this.

You have provided no evidence that your "values" are in line with anything that is not made up in your own head.

 

[Radiant1]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/14/us/new-york-church-assault-case/

I should keep silent? CNN reports that they aren't a mainline Church and some question whether they are in a cult.
It seems that my values are more in line with the CNN article than yours or the others who commented or posted on this.

In all fairness it's highly likely the good Reverend Esper wouldn't consider you mainline either. Just sayin'.


Here's another excerpt from the CNN article (emphasis mine):

But the ex-member denied reports the church is a cult.

"I realize this situation makes it look like this," she said, "but if you listen to the teachings, they are accurate to the Bible."

Didn't David Koresh say the same thing?

 

[Chuckt]

In all fairness it's highly likely the good Reverend Esper wouldn't consider you mainline either. Just sayin'.


Here's another excerpt from the CNN article (emphasis mine):


Didn't David Koresh say the same thing?

At lease he understands what mainline is whereas you don't.

David Koresh was a cultist and an offshoot of Seventh Day Adventism which really isn't Christian in most respects if you did your homework.