Michael Moore: Why Trump Will F****** Win

[b23hqb]

Now this is interesting:

http://www.salon.com/2016/10/26/mic...-donald-trump-as-a-giant-fk-you-and-hell-win/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKeYbEOSqYc

“Donald Trump came to the Detroit Economic Club and stood there in front of Ford Motor executives and said, ‘If you close these factories as you’re planning to do in Detroit and build them in Mexico, I’m going to put a 35-percent tariff on those cars when you send them back and nobody’s going to buy them.’ It was an amazing thing to see. No politician, Republican or Democrat, had ever said anything like that to these executives, and it was music to the ears of people in Michigan and Ohio and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin — the ‘Brexit states.’”

 

[Restitution]

Call it simple thinking but....

These car companies have been outsourcing their processes for YEARS however, the price of vehicles have always gone UP. So, I guess the companies are taking both the monies saved from lower wages and materials (by manufacturing in Mexico, etc.) AND... they are pocketing profits from higher sales prices?

Sound about right?

 

[Clem72]

Call it simple thinking but....

These car companies have been outsourcing their processes for YEARS however, the price of vehicles have always gone UP. So, I guess the companies are taking both the monies saved from lower wages and materials (by manufacturing in Mexico, etc.) AND... they are pocketing profits from higher sales prices?

Sound about right?

I won't argue that they are keeping any and all profits gained through moving labor to foreign markets, but cars definitely are not getting more expensive in an apples to apples comparison.

Cars have more powerful engines that get better gas mileage while weighing less and including much greater safety equipment with features that older car owners never dreamed of (radar, rear view cameras, lane assist, adaptive cruise control, GPS, heated and cooled seats, etc. etc. ) all for about the same price that you have always paid.....in dollars that are worth much less due to inflation.

 

[Restitution]

I won't argue that they are keeping any and all profits gained through moving labor to foreign markets, but cars definitely are not getting more expensive in an apples to apples comparison.

Cars have more powerful engines that get better gas mileage while weighing less and including much greater safety equipment with features that older car owners never dreamed of (radar, rear view cameras, lane assist, adaptive cruise control, GPS, heated and cooled seats, etc. etc. ) all for about the same price that you have always paid.....in dollars that are worth much less due to inflation.

All I know is that the same truck I bought in 2008 for $28K is now $43K. Different body style but... nearly the EXACT same options. To me... that is quite an increase despite the company's increased use of foreign manufacturing.

 

[Clem72]

Just to add to my point:

TV prices have largely remained the same, for 75 years.

In 1939 you could buy a 12" RCA Black and White Television for $699 USD.
In 2015 you could buy a 55" RCA 4K Smart TV for $699 USD.

But obviously you are getting a little bit more for your money (which is worth a whole lot less) today.

 

[b23hqb]

To get back to the premise of the topic - I think Moore may have a pretty good insight into voters in the Rust Belt states. Cars have gone up in price very much so, especially trucks and SUV's, even with many being produced in Mexico and other very low wage countries.Those profits are certainly not going to displaced workers in the form of employment. This is a very touchy area of free enterprise.

 

[Lurk]

Call it simple thinking but....

These car companies have been outsourcing their processes for YEARS however, the price of vehicles have always gone UP. So, I guess the companies are taking both the monies saved from lower wages and materials (by manufacturing in Mexico, etc.) AND... they are pocketing profits from higher sales prices?

Sound about right?

No it doesn't sound about right. In addition to the add-ons you mention (which profit the manufacturers) an additional 30-35% tariff goes to the nation. Will your average automobile purchaser pay the add-on PLUS the 30-35% tariff? I doubt it. At least they won't in sufficient numbers to counter those who buy from another manufacturer.

 

[mAlice]

Sarandon on Clinton

[video=youtube;gFNl9sWrQbs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFNl9sWrQbs[/video]

 

[Restitution]

No it doesn't sound about right. In addition to the add-ons you mention (which profit the manufacturers) an additional 30-35% tariff goes to the nation. Will your average automobile purchaser pay the add-on PLUS the 30-35% tariff? I doubt it. At least they won't in sufficient numbers to counter those who buy from another manufacturer.

I was referring to the way the system is set up NOW. Not post-Trump. Vehicle prices have gone up quite a bit in the last few years AND exporting of manufacturing has increased. If the exporting supposedly saves manufacturing costs then why have the prices increased so dramatically? Remember.. once again.. I have compared vehicles with equal options and there is still a large disparity between pricing.

 

[Clem72]

Vehicle prices have gone up quite a bit in the last few years AND exporting of manufacturing has increased.

You keep saying that, but outside of Ford and their move to aluminum framing (requiring extensive retooling and more expensive materials) I really haven't noticed this trend. According to Google my vehicle has gone up $500 in MSRP (who pays this?) in the 6 years since I bought it.

 

[black dog]

Just to add to my point:

TV prices have largely remained the same, for 75 years.

In 1939 you could buy a 12" RCA Black and White Television for $699 USD.
In 2015 you could buy a 55" RCA 4K Smart TV for $699 USD.

But obviously you are getting a little bit more for your money (which is worth a whole lot less) today.

I'll toss this in, around 1979 we bought our first VCR at Wards for just under 800.00
I bought one a few weeks ago that is a VCR / DVD machine for under 50.00.
The first one had 16 separate tuners in it and it weighed 40 lbs.
The new one has no separate tuners and weighs 2 lbs.
Wanna take odds on which one lasts longer. The one built here, or China..

 

[Hijinx]

I'll toss this in, around 1979 we bought our first VCR at Wards for just under 800.00
I bought one a few weeks ago that is a VCR / DVD machine for under 50.00.
The first one had 16 separate tuners in it and it weighed 40 lbs.
The new one has no separate tuners and weighs 2 lbs.
Wanna take odds on which one lasts longer. The one built here, or China..

You bought it for under $50.00
The store you bought it from made money.
The wholesaler who sold it to them made money
The shipper made money.
The manufacturer who made it made money..

Can you imagine what it cost to actually build it and can you imagine the high paid wages of those who worked there?
Does anyone wonder why we don't build these in America?

 

[Restitution]

You keep saying that, but outside of Ford and their move to aluminum framing (requiring extensive retooling and more expensive materials) I really haven't noticed this trend. According to Google my vehicle has gone up $500 in MSRP (who pays this?) in the 6 years since I bought it.

Like I have already said..... Truck paid in 2008 was $28K. Same make, model, and almost identical options and gadgets now are $43K. And... its not a Ford.

Have you even seen the costs of Trucks and SUVs lately?

 

[Clem72]

I'll toss this in, around 1979 we bought our first VCR at Wards for just under 800.00
I bought one a few weeks ago that is a VCR / DVD machine for under 50.00.
The first one had 16 separate tuners in it and it weighed 40 lbs.
The new one has no separate tuners and weighs 2 lbs.
Wanna take odds on which one lasts longer. The one built here, or China..

I might take that bet. I repaired VCR's in the 80s and 90s, would buy them at the flea market, repair 'em, and sell them. If it had a "tracking problem" or wouldn't eject, it was almost guaranteed to be an easy fix. The tape heads of most of the early top loading units came out of alignment very quickly, and the belts would loosen or break if you used FF/RW often.

And I have a hunch your terminology may be mixed up, because 16 tuners is a bit excessive. Do you possibly mean the built in tuner could be used on 16 different channels? As you may remember those early guys used a built-in tuner with a notch filter to allow you to pass the signal over coax to your TV (usually on channel 3 or 4). I can't think of many reasons you would need to run more than two tuners in a single deck (one to record, one to watch), unless it was for a CCTV or studio application and you needed to run multiple monitors from a single unit.

 

[Hijinx]

Like I have already said..... Truck paid in 2008 was $28K. Same make, model, and almost identical options and gadgets now are $43K. And... its not a Ford.

Have you even seen the costs of Trucks and SUVs lately?

It's crazy, but it was started by the CAFE standard laws.
People who didn't want to buy little cars started buying truck.
But they didn't want trucks they wanted electric windows, plush seas that move 8 ways, floor carpets a sound system.
Power---Diesel and twin blowers for more power.
Then they wanted 4 doors so they could haul the kids and they wanted the kids to be quiet so they got DVD's hooked to the back of the seats and a hot spot for internet connections.
Most of them have never seen a real load in the bed.

The government got rid station wagons and got trucks.
Crazy thing is the station wagons got 20 MPG and the trucks get 12.

 

[DipStick]

Just to add to my point:

TV prices have largely remained the same, for 75 years.

In 1939 you could buy a 12" RCA Black and White Television for $699 USD.
In 2015 you could buy a 55" RCA 4K Smart TV for $699 USD.

But obviously you are getting a little bit more for your money (which is worth a whole lot less) today.

Televisions from the "golden age" still work too. I know my grandparents had a television set for some 50 years that worked.

Meanwhile, nowadays, you're lucky if your LED TV lasts five years.

 

[Hijinx]

Televisions from the "golden age" still work too. I know my grandparents had a television set for some 50 years that worked.

Meanwhile, nowadays, you're lucky if your LED TV lasts five years.

Today they are made to only last 5 years.

 

[tommyjo]

To get back to the premise of the topic - I think Moore may have a pretty good insight into voters in the Rust Belt states. Cars have gone up in price very much so, especially trucks and SUV's, even with many being produced in Mexico and other very low wage countries.Those profits are certainly not going to displaced workers in the form of employment. This is a very touchy area of free enterprise.

God dam that is a stupid post.

No, as Clem keeps saying on an inflation and even real dollar adjusted basis the price of cars has not gone up.

No, Michael Moore does not have a good point and no Donald Trump doesn't either. It takes an immense economic moron not to understand that tariffs do not work. Michael Moore is the anti-Christ to all you right wing types...NOW you love him? Why, because he is as ignorant about the topic as you are.

No...companies don't share profits with their displaced workers...of course they are sharing them with their retired union workers thru pensions and health benes. You want to know why jobs were moving out of the country...look at what THE UNION did to the worker thru the massive legacy costs put on the companies.

No, this is not a "very touchy area of free enterprise". Tariffs are stupid. Manufacturing jobs have been moving out of the US for 40+ years. NO trade deals are not the reason.

Damn...go learn something.

 

[DipStick]

Today they are made to only last 5 years.

Why I don't spend a bunch of money on TVs anyways. Two years from now, 4K will be obsolete. It's always changing.

 

[Clem72]

Televisions from the "golden age" still work too. I know my grandparents had a television set for some 50 years that worked.

Meanwhile, nowadays, you're lucky if your LED TV lasts five years.

Reminds me of when my grandmother passed in the early 80s. She had the largest tube TV I had ever seen, 40 inches and it was built into a custom cabinet that took an entire wall. She was quite well off having married and outlived 4 fair to moderately wealthy husbands, but even so I can't imagine what that TV would have cost at the time. In any case, I remember it was difficult to sell her house given that it had several such eccentricities (indoor sauna, crazy tv wall, kitchen walls studded with rhinestones)