Can we provide a depression/PTSD vaccine?

This_person

Well-Known Member
18 minutes, but worth the listen. Is it possible to inoculate ourselves from PTSD and depression?

[video=youtube;DWZsOe1j2w0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWZsOe1j2w0[/video]
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Once you get your mind around chemistry, chemical reactions, proteins, how our bodies work, it's pretty simple to then conceive of chemical solutions be it eating better food, less alcohol, a little weed in the diet, even meditation impacts you chemically.

That said, it makes a lot more sense to address the things causing the problems. For example, PTSD is preventable from the standpoint of not being shot at all the time or being used to find IED's with your legs.
Depression is preventable by reducing the stresses that lead to it.
Same as obesity by eating less.

It's fine to have treatment solutions for the unavoidable if the causes can't be mitigated or eliminated but we shouldn't drug people so that they can keep patrolling until their legs get blown off. We shouldn't heap so much on one another societally whereby bills and traffic and debt and expectations aren't addressed while the economy continues to make matters worse. No one gets depressed when they buy a new house and car and can send the kids to a better school. They get depressed when the economy falls out underneath them. No one gets PTSD from boot camp and reasonable exposure to danger. It's the extremes we subject ourselves to where the circuit breakers need to trip.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
Once you get your mind around chemistry, chemical reactions, proteins, how our bodies work, it's pretty simple to then conceive of chemical solutions be it eating better food, less alcohol, a little weed in the diet, even meditation impacts you chemically.

That said, it makes a lot more sense to address the things causing the problems. For example, PTSD is preventable from the standpoint of not being shot at all the time or being used to find IED's with your legs.
Depression is preventable by reducing the stresses that lead to it.
Same as obesity by eating less.

It's fine to have treatment solutions for the unavoidable if the causes can't be mitigated or eliminated but we shouldn't drug people so that they can keep patrolling until their legs get blown off. We shouldn't heap so much on one another societally whereby bills and traffic and debt and expectations aren't addressed while the economy continues to make matters worse. No one gets depressed when they buy a new house and car and can send the kids to a better school. They get depressed when the economy falls out underneath them. No one gets PTSD from boot camp and reasonable exposure to danger. It's the extremes we subject ourselves to where the circuit breakers need to trip.

I specifically didn't post this in the military page because depression and ptsd come from a lot more than military actions. This lady has a really good and scientific process that found a different way to deal with the brain issues that are predominant in depressed people or people with PTSD. Like most great medical discoveries, it was completely an accidental find.

I would find it amazing to us if we can do this. The lives it would improve are worth the research and trials and implementation.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
If you find it amazing, then you're behind the implications of the genome mapping implications a little.
We'll very soon be able to turn off, or on, all sorts of things.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
What's bothering me about this is, science is approaching mental disorders from the same angle as infectious diseases. Her first example was TB. TB is caused by a bacteria; a chemical that enters the body and causes drastic inflammation of body tissue. That bacteria (a chemical) is combated with chemicals. Depression and PTSD are caused by stress - external events causing an internal reaction. With TB, if the bacteria enters your body, you will contract the disease. But not everyone who is exposed to a stressful event will result in PTSD or depression. So, what's different with someone who suffers from depression and someone who doesn't.

Now, I'm not a scientist or any expert on psychological or pathological issues. So, I'm only giving my opinion on doing a lot of reading. It's my guess that our ancestors (cavemen/hunter/gathers) ate very pure diets consisting of meat, nuts, berries, and some leafy plants. They had a cyclical diet where during warmer seasons they ate meat and nuts; a very protein and fat rich diet; with very few foods containing carbohydrates. They remained in a state of ketosis. That is, until winter came and some foods became more scarce, and they would eat foods containing more crabs in order to fatten up for the winter. But they never stayed in this state.

Then humans discovered other forms of food and learned how to harvest it. They established settlements where they no long had to hunt and gather; someone else would produce food form them and markets were formed. What changed? We started eating more carbs throughout the year. We changed 10 millions years of human evolution in a matter of a few hundred or thousand years. The bulking of carbohydrates and refined sugars created a new thing in our bodies that our ancestors probably didn't suffer from - Inflammation. Carbs, when consumed long-term causes not only weight gain, but also inflammation all over the body. And inflammation isn't just limited to bad knees or arthritis or colitis... Inflammation also occurs in the brain. When neurotransmitters are gunked up with all of the toxins we eat, inflammation occurs and a plethora of brain disorders can occur (depression, anxiety, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's...).

The brain is made up of mostly fat. It needs fat to be healthy. When we have a diet that is mostly carbs, our brain is being deprived of the thing it needs. This is also true of every cell in your body. We have to approach these things, not from a disease standpoint - as in an external virus or bacteria attacking our body - but from a diet standpoint. Quite simply we're eating all the wrong foods. And added to that are all the chemicals added to our foods that our body was not designed to process (pesticides, GMOs, grain-fed cows). The vaccine is food.

Just some food for thought.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
What's bothering me about this is, science is approaching mental disorders from the same angle as infectious diseases. Her first example was TB. TB is caused by a bacteria; a chemical that enters the body and causes drastic inflammation of body tissue. That bacteria (a chemical) is combated with chemicals. Depression and PTSD are caused by stress - external events causing an internal reaction. With TB, if the bacteria enters your body, you will contract the disease. But not everyone who is exposed to a stressful event will result in PTSD or depression. So, what's different with someone who suffers from depression and someone who doesn't.

Now, I'm not a scientist or any expert on psychological or pathological issues. So, I'm only giving my opinion on doing a lot of reading. It's my guess that our ancestors (cavemen/hunter/gathers) ate very pure diets consisting of meat, nuts, berries, and some leafy plants. They had a cyclical diet where during warmer seasons they ate meat and nuts; a very protein and fat rich diet; with very few foods containing carbohydrates. They remained in a state of ketosis. That is, until winter came and some foods became more scarce, and they would eat foods containing more crabs in order to fatten up for the winter. But they never stayed in this state.

Then humans discovered other forms of food and learned how to harvest it. They established settlements where they no long had to hunt and gather; someone else would produce food form them and markets were formed. What changed? We started eating more carbs throughout the year. We changed 10 millions years of human evolution in a matter of a few hundred or thousand years. The bulking of carbohydrates and refined sugars created a new thing in our bodies that our ancestors probably didn't suffer from - Inflammation. Carbs, when consumed long-term causes not only weight gain, but also inflammation all over the body. And inflammation isn't just limited to bad knees or arthritis or colitis... Inflammation also occurs in the brain. When neurotransmitters are gunked up with all of the toxins we eat, inflammation occurs and a plethora of brain disorders can occur (depression, anxiety, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's...).

The brain is made up of mostly fat. It needs fat to be healthy. When we have a diet that is mostly carbs, our brain is being deprived of the thing it needs. This is also true of every cell in your body. We have to approach these things, not from a disease standpoint - as in an external virus or bacteria attacking our body - but from a diet standpoint. Quite simply we're eating all the wrong foods. And added to that are all the chemicals added to our foods that our body was not designed to process (pesticides, GMOs, grain-fed cows). The vaccine is food.

Just some food for thought.

You go dicking around in people's mind with pills and you sometimes get a result you don't want.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
You go dicking around in people's mind with pills and you sometimes get a result you don't want.

I happen to believe diet answers the vast majority of our problems. I've read articles that say cancer cells feed off of glucose. If you stop eating simple carbs and refined sugars you can starve the cancer. There's no evidence it will heal you of cancer – especially if it metastasizes – but it does provide a better foundation for healing. I'm not saying medications are bad news, I just think Dr. Brachman is leaving out an extremely important component in what causes mental problems - bad food.
 
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Larry Gude

Strung Out
What's bothering me about this is, science is approaching mental disorders from the same angle as infectious diseases. Her first example was TB. TB is caused by a bacteria; a chemical that enters the body and causes drastic inflammation of body tissue. That bacteria (a chemical) is combated with chemicals. Depression and PTSD are caused by stress - external events causing an internal reaction. With TB, if the bacteria enters your body, you will contract the disease. But not everyone who is exposed to a stressful event will result in PTSD or depression. So, what's different with someone who suffers from depression and someone who doesn't. .

Now, add to that that everyone who has TB bacteria enter there body does NOT get TB. Agreed? I mean, we know that, same as not everyone exposed to malaria gets it, not everyone exposed to a given plague gets it, etc and etc, just like not everyone gets PTSD. Agreed?

Science, biology asks 'why not?' and with the mapping of DNA, the genome project, as I understand it, more and more science is able to say that it is because G1 and A7 where 'on' for this person and A7 was off for that guy at that moment thus he suffered/was infected/etc and the guy right next to him was not (I'm just throwing this out there to make the point, I don't know which is which and does this or that, I've just been told that DNA sequencing boils down to 'switches' that are off or on and in conjunction with others, various combinations, this or that result WILL happen). Point being that getting PTSD is every bit as much biological as TB, or so goes the argument as I understand it. Thus it's the chemical reaction in your brain because of whatever, that makes you more or less likely or even guaranteed to get or not get this or that affliction.

It's tough using paleo examples because we only lived for 20-25 years, not really long enough to know what that sort of diet would mean at 5 or 50 or 75 years of age. That said, the point is that food is medicine. You're so right that what we eat is not just important but central. I think everything is related and interconnected. Stress has a chemical impact on the body and organs. Over time that, like salt or fat or carbs, bad carbs, good ones, green veggies, everything has what boils down to a chemical input to our bodies including mental illness.

So I agree we ALSO need to look at diet but a great diet may help improve your chances of not getting TB or PTSD because you're generally healthier and more able to resist but we also know otherwise perfectly healthy people DO get PTSD and TB and this or that when an otherwise wreck of a person does not. That gets it back to the chemical reactions going on inside of us and how it impacts our DNA 'switches'.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Now, add to that that everyone who has TB bacteria enter there body does NOT get TB. Agreed? I mean, we know that, same as not everyone exposed to malaria gets it, not everyone exposed to a given plague gets it, etc and etc, just like not everyone gets PTSD. Agreed?

Science, biology asks 'why not?' and with the mapping of DNA, the genome project, as I understand it, more and more science is able to say that it is because G1 and A7 where 'on' for this person and A7 was off for that guy at that moment thus he suffered/was infected/etc and the guy right next to him was not (I'm just throwing this out there to make the point, I don't know which is which and does this or that, I've just been told that DNA sequencing boils down to 'switches' that are off or on and in conjunction with others, various combinations, this or that result WILL happen). Point being that getting PTSD is every bit as much biological as TB, or so goes the argument as I understand it. Thus it's the chemical reaction in your brain because of whatever, that makes you more or less likely or even guaranteed to get or not get this or that affliction.

It's tough using paleo examples because we only lived for 20-25 years, not really long enough to know what that sort of diet would mean at 5 or 50 or 75 years of age. That said, the point is that food is medicine. You're so right that what we eat is not just important but central. I think everything is related and interconnected. Stress has a chemical impact on the body and organs. Over time that, like salt or fat or carbs, bad carbs, good ones, green veggies, everything has what boils down to a chemical input to our bodies including mental illness.

So I agree we ALSO need to look at diet but a great diet may help improve your chances of not getting TB or PTSD because you're generally healthier and more able to resist but we also know otherwise perfectly healthy people DO get PTSD and TB and this or that when an otherwise wreck of a person does not. That gets it back to the chemical reactions going on inside of us and how it impacts our DNA 'switches'.

I agree that showing the symptoms of TB relies on one’s immune system; and I’m certain genetics play a role. I was using TB as an example of diseases we don’t have much control over because it’s contracted through external means (airborne bacteria). Your body fights viruses and bacteria through the immune system. Mental disorders are internal responses to external events (although it could be internal as well). The immune system can be compromised, but the immune system does not kick in to fight off depression or PTSD.

The question is, did our caveman ancestors suffer from things like depression, Parkinson’s, or dementia? The claim is, they died younger because contracted diseases they were unable to treat. Dr. David Perlmutter claims he has treated patients with Parkinson’s and MS with a strict paleo diet and put them into remission. Diabetes is fast becoming the number one disease in this country. Did our ancestors have diabetes? It’s highly unlikely since they didn’t eat refined sugar.

But my main point is that these doctors often talk about medical breakthroughs from a singular angle of treating it with a chemical and completely leave out the most important aspect of any health issue – what we take in our mouths. Our diets so loaded with carbs and chemicals that our body wasn’t designed to process. The only response our body knows how to have to deal with it is combat these things as though they were a virus or bacteria. The result is inflammation.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I agree that showing the symptoms of TB relies on one’s immune system; and I’m certain genetics play a role. I was using TB as an example of diseases we don’t have much control over because it’s contracted through external means (airborne bacteria). Your body fights viruses and bacteria through the immune system. Mental disorders are internal responses to external events (although it could be internal as well). The immune system can be compromised, but the immune system does not kick in to fight off depression or PTSD.

The question is, did our caveman ancestors suffer from things like depression, Parkinson’s, or dementia? The claim is, they died younger because contracted diseases they were unable to treat. Dr. David Perlmutter claims he has treated patients with Parkinson’s and MS with a strict paleo diet and put them into remission. Diabetes is fast becoming the number one disease in this country. Did our ancestors have diabetes? It’s highly unlikely since they didn’t eat refined sugar.

But my main point is that these doctors often talk about medical breakthroughs from a singular angle of treating it with a chemical and completely leave out the most important aspect of any health issue – what we take in our mouths. Our diets so loaded with carbs and chemicals that our body wasn’t designed to process. The only response our body knows how to have to deal with it is combat these things as though they were a virus or bacteria. The result is inflammation.

Ah, but that is just the point I am arguing; the immune system DOES fight off depression and/or PTSD. And it does so chemically.

And, again, to the caveman, they didn't have a chance to develop many other problems because, largely, those who survived child birth and the first terribly vulnerable years, tended to die of infection from rotting teeth. They were not less susceptible to modern problems because that ate better per say. They were less susceptible because they died too soon for many of them to set hold. Of course, you could argue that a digestive system that survives eating the rotting and filthy food of their day was pretty robust but that food certainly killed off a lot of them, too and not just the weak.

And again, while I agree that what we eat is HUGE, I am arguing that what we eat should be looked at as chemicals, same as medicines.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
And again, while I agree that what we eat is HUGE, I am arguing that what we eat should be looked at as chemicals, same as medicines.

Food - good foods - are chemicals our body was designed to process. Chemicals in medicines are not. That's why there are a plethora of side effects listed with medications and not with food.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Food - good foods - are chemicals our body was designed to process. Chemicals in medicines are not. That's why there are a plethora of side effects listed with medications and not with food.

Ok, but our bodies evolve. We can't say as a baseline we had a great diet 50,000 years ago. It's what was there. We evolved to eat it. Right now, there is some sickening statistic that shows North Koreans are about 6" shorter than their recent ancestors of 1950 (pre war). They could be said to be eating 'what we were designed to eat' and yet some junk food eating slob in South Koran who has vitamin supplements is bigger, stronger, faster and healthier in general.

I think we have far more in agreement here than not. I'm just pushing back against the notion that palo man ate 'properly'. He ate what was there and it wasn't the BEST for him. It's what he had.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Ok, but our bodies evolve. We can't say as a baseline we had a great diet 50,000 years ago. It's what was there. We evolved to eat it. Right now, there is some sickening statistic that shows North Koreans are about 6" shorter than their recent ancestors of 1950 (pre war). They could be said to be eating 'what we were designed to eat' and yet some junk food eating slob in South Koran who has vitamin supplements is bigger, stronger, faster and healthier in general.

I think we have far more in agreement here than not. I'm just pushing back against the notion that palo man ate 'properly'. He ate what was there and it wasn't the BEST for him. It's what he had.

If we evolved, there wouldn't be diseases like diabetes. We have 10 millions years of evolving to adapt to this current diet of never ending carbs and chemical-laced foods.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
If we evolved, there wouldn't be diseases like diabetes. We have 10 millions years of evolving to adapt to this current diet of never ending carbs and chemical-laced foods.

Well, evolution never stops. Some, many, most are evolving right now to survive diabetes. It's causes are a new challenge for our systems and many are suffering. But, most are not.

And, no, we don't have 10 million years. We've been around for about 200,000 years. Our predecessors died out.
 

This_person

Well-Known Member
I think food is just something we put in ourselves, and diet will provide the same types of things that medicines will; they will effect overall (including brain) chemistry.

However, each person is individually unique in their make-up and predisposition to how chemicals are used in their bodies. We've all known that one person for whom aspirin just doesn't work, or who has a high metabolism and can eat anything, or who "holds their liquor" better than others, or whatever. The same is true for stress. Some people have a different bodily reaction to stress. That is to say that two people who are both experiencing the exact same scenario (be it war, or street violence, or brother/sister being abused by parents, or whatever) will have different reactions - physically/emotionally/mentally - to that same scenario. The only logical explanation to me for that is that their body chemistry is different.

Well, if body chemistry can both be modified by experience and can change how one responds to experience, then I believe that there is the possibility that we can modify the body chemistry to the point where we can control IF the experiences like stress can lead to depression or PTSD.

It's my understanding from the video that this is to what the doctor is referring.

The reason I think it is amazing is not the chemistry concept, but the fact that research is being done in this area, and the pain and agony felt by people with depression and PTSD, and the families and friends and coworkers and emergency response workers and so many others that are influenced by the people with PTSD and depression, could be significantly relieved. That's amazing to me, and I hope it is something that can come true. People need to feel the shock and pain and such at the time of a significant emotional event, but they need both the mental coping skills and the physical capabilities to learn and move on, not stay traumatized permanently.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Well, evolution never stops. Some, many, most are evolving right now to survive diabetes. It's causes are a new challenge for our systems and many are suffering. But, most are not.

And, no, we don't have 10 million years. We've been around for about 200,000 years. Our predecessors died out.

My point is, we are trying to overcome 10 millions years of evolution in a matter of a few thousand years. Our bodies, particularly our digestive system, has not adapted to a mostly grain and sugar diet. It's for that reason we have an epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease.

Humans and apes split 7-10 million years ago. Homo Habilis emerged about 3 million years ago. These early human species were predominately meat eaters along with nuts and berries. This is millions of years of adaptation to a diet full of fats and protein and very little carbs. Their bodies would have been in a constant state of ketosis as opposed to glycolysis. Our cells are still programmed to process ketones for energy, not glucose. We are forcing our bodies to do what is not programmed to do. It explains why so many people suffer from inflammation-related diseases.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
My point is, we are trying to overcome 10 millions years of evolution in a matter of a few thousand years. Our bodies, particularly our digestive system, has not adapted to a mostly grain and sugar diet. It's for that reason we have an epidemic of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease.

Humans and apes split 7-10 million years ago. Homo Habilis emerged about 3 million years ago. These early human species were predominately meat eaters along with nuts and berries. This is millions of years of adaptation to a diet full of fats and protein and very little carbs. Their bodies would have been in a constant state of ketosis as opposed to glycolysis. Our cells are still programmed to process ketones for energy, not glucose. We are forcing our bodies to do what is not programmed to do. It explains why so many people suffer from inflammation-related diseases.

No. We're dealing, within our species, at most, 200,000 years. Our ancestors died out. Failed to evolve past their end. We are, in fact, evolving, right now, to our new diet. MANY people do NOT get diabetes. Many who you'd think should are not and many who you'd think not, are getting it. By your reasoning, our predecessors diet killed them and it certainly played some part, good and bad. Some, MANT pre-humans were killed, very early on, by that diet and, obviously, they didn't make it as a species to today. Maybe they made it longer than we will in total? Maybe, it will turn out to be far shorter than us?

So, it all comes back to thinking about food and everything else we ingest as a chemical and how it interacts within our bodies with all our other inputs be it exercise (and the chemical benefits or cons) or meditation (and it's chemical pluses and minuses) or our local environment and those chemical inputs and exports. We constantly read about the centenarians who smoked every day/not a day in their lives, ate bacon and eggs in pork fat every day/not a day in their lives, ate whatever they wanted whenever they wanted, had strict diets, drank, did not drink and so forth. Same with PTSD, diabetes, malaria, the plague, some do, some don't and it is all the net result of the chemical interactions and timing and circumstances of our lives.

We're reaching the point with the DNA sequencing to KNOW that this plus this and that at this time and temp will result in scientifically reproducible results. Up until now, we worked with generalities. Smoking is bad. Except for that guy or gal who avoided a heart attack because nicotine helped them, chemically, reduce stress (another chemical result). And so on and so forth. There is MUCH to learn, way more than we know but we're well advanced from 10, 20, 100, 200,000 years ago. We're learning how to build health and well being and, conversely, how or why this illness or that condition. :buddies:
 
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