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Thread: America's love of gas guzzlers

  1. #21
    Spent time over the last couple days researching electric vehicles.

    found only a couple that had a useful range, more than 120 miles, and looked over charging station availability.

    takeaway for me was... still impractical.

    The Tesla everyone is ranting about has a range of 240 miles but the price tag on that thing is over 80k!!!!

    I'll stick with my F150.

    You can keep them.
    ___________________________________________________________
    "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by black dog View Post
    Lead acid batterys are virtually 100% recycled for decades now,
    In the last few years most modern battery's are being recycled except for today's battery cells used in electric cars, trucks but soon they will learn how to recycle them also.
    The big killer with any combustion is you just can't make it more efficient than 38% + - very little, that's as good as it gets. It doesn't matter if it super charged, turbo, diesel, gas, ethanol, propane, CNG or whatever.
    Modern electric cars are 68 to 72% efficient.
    And the question about burning coal, you know that the 3 coal burners in Maryland run as efficient as clean coal can run with today's technology, the scrubbers that Mirant installed 5 or 6 years ago do a amazing job cleaning the air. Nothing comes out of the old smokestacks any longer, just steam more or less from the scrubber stacks.
    Maybe we're seeing "efficiency" differently.

    The best coal plants are almost 33% efficient, just like nukes. (The heat rates listed at the link for 2005 through 2015 are all "the amount of heat required to generate one kWh of electricity", which is about 3412 Btu. The best year average coal plant was almost 10,350. 3412 Btu for 10,350 is 32.97% efficient).

    So, that means (if you're estimate of up to 72% efficient for electric cars) that from coal to road-motion, the best you can expect is about 23.7% of the energy in the coal making your car move.

    Now, certainly there are some pretty huge differences in the energy efficiency of gasoline engines. If we try to do an apples-to-apples comparison, the same chart shows the worst year for petroleum electric plants was 11,000. 3412 gotten from 11,000 is 31%. That's more than 7% more efficient than the net efficiency of the coal-to-electricity car.

    A good, unbiased article on recycling batteries is here.
    It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
    Jiddu Krisnamurti

  3. #23
    I should have used " clean" with the coal power plants, and we are getting off the rails here.
    I stated above that recycling battery's, lead acid and most other battery's except the new generation are near 100% recycled.
    Exide has recycling plants all over the country. I have one 25 miles from me in Muncie, IN. It runs three shifts a day.
    The facts are simple, electric is here and it's gonna stay here and soon enough it will become the new normal.
    Electric motors are more efficient with fuel, and if built with quantity parts have virtually no maintenance and will run easily for decades. All the things a combustion engine can't do.

    I've seen hundreds if not thousands of electric motors in my 20+ years with Otis Elevator that were installed in the late 1800's that have been running 5 or 6 days a week since being installed with nothing more than a biannual greaseing or oil change.

    And I have said earlier, I'm a happy diesel burner. But like we were told when I was a kid, computers are coming.
    Electric cars are coming.
    Proud to be a cereal comma user.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
    Spent time over the last couple days researching electric vehicles.

    found only a couple that had a useful range, more than 120 miles, and looked over charging station availability.

    takeaway for me was... still impractical.

    The Tesla everyone is ranting about has a range of 240 miles but the price tag on that thing is over 80k!!!!

    I'll stick with my F150.

    You can keep them.
    Most folks who commute don't drive anywhere near 120 miles a day round trip.
    In backwards Indiana we have Companys and factory's that already have installed charging stations in the parking lots for employees to use while working.
    How often does one rent a gasoline golf cart to play golf ?
    Proud to be a cereal comma user.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by black dog View Post
    I should have used " clean" with the coal power plants, and we are getting off the rails here.
    As I say, we were probably using the word "efficiency" differently. It sounds like you're using it to suggest "amount of CO2 generated per mile driven", which is a very reasonable argument to make since the claim is that carbon is the problem (though there is no proof of that).

    I can't speak to that. I know that if we just turn water into hydrogen and oxygen and burn that, there's no carbon dioxide generated. If every car had a small nuclear plant, there's be no carbon generated. My question wasn't really about efficiency (that was a side discussion). My question was why we "should" be using electric cars.

    Electric motors are more efficient with fuel, and if built with quantity parts have virtually no maintenance and will run easily for decades. All the things a combustion engine can't do.

    I've seen hundreds if not thousands of electric motors in my 20+ years with Otis Elevator that were installed in the late 1800's that have been running 5 or 6 days a week since being installed with nothing more than a biannual greaseing or oil change.

    And I have said earlier, I'm a happy diesel burner. But like we were told when I was a kid, computers are coming.
    Electric cars are coming.
    I believe they're coming. I don't dispute it. I just have no idea why.
    It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
    Jiddu Krisnamurti

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by black dog View Post
    Most folks who commute don't drive anywhere near 120 miles a day round trip.
    In backwards Indiana we have Companys and factory's that already have installed charging stations in the parking lots for employees to use while working.
    How often does one rent a gasoline golf cart to play golf ?
    And, battery technology is getting better and better. You can thank the submarine community for that - large-scale batteries are needed for exceptionally-quiet running. The Australian Collins class, and the proposed replacement for that class, are huge drivers in better battery technology.

    But, gasoline has the ability to sit in your car the whole time you're at the airport for a two-week vacation, without needing refilled, and start-up and run when you get back. If you have a full tank (I have a 36 gallon tank), you could drive for hundreds of miles, fill up, and continue for hundreds more. It provides flexibility, power, and longevity that electric cars just never will.

    Imagine a farmer plowing, and needing to stop every few hours for several hours. Or, to have multiple batteries that are somehow replaceable in an easy way (what would it take, four batteries per tractor to charge and allow for the continuous operations required when bringing in the crops?). Or, semis - what kind of heat would be generated to pull a 53' trailer full of batteries?

    If we all drove smart cars in NYC to get to/from work, electric cars could be a good option. To have the freedom of flexibility that we do now, electric will never be a viable option.

    That's where my question, why "should" we be going to electric comes from.
    It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
    Jiddu Krisnamurti

  7. #27
    I would tend to believe it has to be a safer alternative to use electric over hydrogen or nuke. Just think about that mess with a highway pileup.
    I'm a pro nuke guy, but I'm not sure about everyone driving one around.
    There is a GE turbine overhaul plant in Indianapolis that has a small museum in it. It has quite a few turbine cars that they build in the last 40 years. It's neat to see a Chevette with a little turbine under the hood.
    Proud to be a cereal comma user.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by This_person View Post
    And, battery technology is getting better and better. You can thank the submarine community for that - large-scale batteries are needed for exceptionally-quiet running. The Australian Collins class, and the proposed replacement for that class, are huge drivers in better battery technology.

    But, gasoline has the ability to sit in your car the whole time you're at the airport for a two-week vacation, without needing refilled, and start-up and run when you get back. If you have a full tank (I have a 36 gallon tank), you could drive for hundreds of miles, fill up, and continue for hundreds more. It provides flexibility, power, and longevity that electric cars just never will.

    Imagine a farmer plowing, and needing to stop every few hours for several hours. Or, to have multiple batteries that are somehow replaceable in an easy way (what would it take, four batteries per tractor to charge and allow for the continuous operations required when bringing in the crops?). Or, semis - what kind of heat would be generated to pull a 53' trailer full of batteries?



    If we all drove smart cars in NYC to get to/from work, electric cars could be a good option. To have the freedom of flexibility that we do now, electric will never be a viable option.

    That's where my question, why "should" we be going to electric comes from.

    Yea I understand what you are saying and I have said from the start of this thread the words " commuting " and it doesn't work for everyone.
    I've stated I drive a diesel F350 it has a 40 gallon tank and a auxillary in the bed that holds 90 gallons. And my commute is about 30 yards.
    But certainly not everyone drives like you or me.
    How many commute from Waldorf / Brandywine to inside the beltway? How many stay at home folks that have a car drive less than say 200 miles per week?

    To answer your question on why should we?
    For starters operating a electric car runs about 30 to 40% of what combustion costs.
    Last edited by black dog; 01-24-2017 at 12:25 AM.
    Proud to be a cereal comma user.

  9. #29
    INGSOC GURPS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by black dog View Post
    For starters operating a electric car runs about 30 to 40% of what combustion costs.

    I get that ... but the premium you pay for such a car is not cost effective
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
    - Robert J. Hanlon.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyle View Post

    The Tesla everyone is ranting about has a range of 240 miles but the price tag on that thing is over 80k!!!!

    I'll stick with my F150.

    You can keep them.
    That wasn't the point. Sam was saying that, even among the premium ones he's been in, they felt like junk, toys, not solid. I've been in several Tesla's and they are damn nice.

    If you assume 200,000 miles on the F150 at, what, 18 mpg, and that's being generous, and assuming no major repairs or battery replacement on the Tesla, and that's not unrealistic and soon will be expected, assume 11,000 gallons for the truck at $2.75, that's over $30k. Throw in oil changes at $50 per, 40 over it's life, that's another $2k or so. The gap is closing.

    Assume $.10 kw/h or somewhere between $.03 and .07 per mile to charge the Tesla, that's about $6,000-$14,000.

    So, call it half. And that assumes no home solar panels. Or public arrays.
    Nepotism begins at home

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