Happening Now, Media Silent

[mAlice]

I also watched the extended video last night, but can't find it now.

[video=youtube;Ii0OmbwfaoE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ii0OmbwfaoE[/video]

https://cdn.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2017/01/03/15-55563.pdf

http://www.inquisitr.com/3759882/wh...ie-to-remove-children-from-their-homes-video/

 

[mAlice]

Found it...

complete 40+ minutes

[video=youtube;D0-M5hsyLjQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0-M5hsyLjQ[/video]

 

[mAlice]

[video=youtube;BgsMr0gbttM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgsMr0gbttM[/video]

 

[vraiblonde]

I can't watch videos because it eats my data plan. What's it about?

 

[mAlice]

I can't watch videos because it eats my data plan. What's it about?

second link in the first post is the court doc. The argument is whether or not caseworkers should be allowed to lie or not, in order to remove your children from your care. It's just crazy.

 

[Dakota]

I can't watch videos because it eats my data plan. What's it about?

https://chronicleofsocialchange.org...-case-asks-constitution-caseworkers-lie/21974

^read here....


I have followed this and cases like it and don't understand how this got so far. If a caseworker produces false evidence to remove a child from the home, to me, that would be fraud and they should be charged.

The claim in all of this is that Social Services gets funding to create a workload that doesn't exists to the extent they say it does. They investigate, make stuff up, to remove children from homes, whine for funding, blah blah blah and get it... BECAUSE "it's for the children." Could this be true? sure it could.

 

[Larry Gude]

Readers digest;

CPS (child protective services) people want to break the law to get kids out of homes and subvert parental rights in favor of foster parents and/or guardians.

I am ASSUMING, as it is not in the vids, that the CPS people think some situations are so bad, yet they can't find enough evidence or build the case well enough, or, perhaps, sense of urgency, can't do it fast enough, that they, as gumnmint employees working in the best interest of the kids, need to be able to lie in court, prevent false testimony, make #### up, to satisfy courts to get orders to get kids out and protect them AND need legal protection that says it's OK.

Obviously, many is the case where justice would be served by violating the law, getting kids away from bad parents ASAP be it illegal drugs, violence, sexual abuse, etc. Just as obviously, this could be used to abuse parents for reasons of ideology. What if CPS says you're a bad parent, lies about you to get your kid out, because they take the position that home schooling or taking the kid to church or letting them listen to disfavored media is harming the kid?

 

[GURPS]

Readers digest;

.... that the CPS people think some situations are so bad ....

Think, have a opinion ... NO Legal Proof

lets lock up people because a COP 'THINKS' you might be doing something wrong ... sans any evidence
Oh yeah, CPS usually brings the COPS as well .... so there is that as well


there has been enough hysteria in the legal system thanks ...
.... people went to jail for 10 or more years because prosecutors badgered children in to confessing they had been sexually abused by their parents

 

[Larry Gude]

Think, have a opinion ... NO Legal Proof

lets lock up people because a COP 'THINKS' you might be doing something wrong ... sans any evidence
Oh yeah, CPS usually brings the COPS as well .... so there is that as well


there has been enough hysteria in the legal system thanks ...
.... people went to jail for 10 or more years because prosecutors badgered children in to confessing they had been sexually abused by their parents

Dude, the question was 'what go on?" . Not 'do I agree or disagree'. There have been innumerable cases where the legal truth let kids suffer and be destroyed and even die because the law can;t be satisfied. That said, I can clearly see where this would cross the line into the subjective and violating parental rights for ANYTHING deemed politically incorrect. That puts EVERYONE at risk to and at the mercy of the popular mob, the very thing the law is supposed to prevent.

Legally, this is outrageous. Morally, just like a cop framing a bad guy he KNOWS, but can't prove, is harming people, there is a case to be made.

 

[GURPS]

That said, I can clearly see where this would cross the line into the subjective and violating parental rights for ANYTHING deemed politically incorrect.

ok I missed your objections in the last post

 

[vraiblonde]

“How in the world could a person in the shoes of your clients possibly believe that it was appropriate to use perjury and false evidence” to remove a child from a parent, Trott asked. “How could they possibly not be in notice that you can’t do that?”

^This^

So now there has to be a specific law that says social workers can't lie when trying to take children from their parents? Seriously?? That's ridiculous and why lawyers who argue these suits should be strapped to the chair.

However, here's the background:
http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/strong-478024-county-fogarty.html

Fogarty-Hardwick gave her ex-husband full custody in 2002, hoping to protect her daughters. She was then allowed two supervised visits a month for two years. She eventually won 50-50 custody in 2006.

Not enough information to really tell, but there's a reason why this woman was only allowed two supervised visits a month with her kids. It could be that her ex husband is a douche and the two social workers were in his pocket, but it's more likely that she was involved in drugs and other activities that endanger her children. But if that's the case, the kids would go live with their dad instead of foster care. What I know - that I'd lay money on - is that they didn't just pick her name out of the phone book and decide to trump up a case to take her children from her.

I'm still searching for more info from other sources, but all I can find are interviews with the mother - and what's she gonna say? Daily Kos has a story, but they're putting a racial spin on it - surprise surprise - because apparently they're not aware that the mother is white and attractive. So far nothing on how this all started in the first place.

 

[b23hqb]

Lying + planting false evidence to allow the state to remove a child from their parents = kidnapping.

 

[vraiblonde]

Legally, this is outrageous. Morally, just like a cop framing a bad guy he KNOWS, but can't prove, is harming people, there is a case to be made.

That's why I'm trying to find out why her kids were taken from her in the first place. Maybe she was some ####bag pimping her kids out for crack. Maybe she beat them. Maybe she stayed out drinking all night and left them alone. We know it's something, but what?

As many kids that are left in abusive negligent homes by social workers and courts, I find it hard to believe that they targeted this one mother for the complete opposite. Especially since she's a white woman who looks like Heather Locklear. Here's a recent pic of the woman and her daughters:

 

[Larry Gude]

As many kids that are left in abusive negligent homes by social workers and courts, I find it hard to believe that they targeted this one mother for the complete opposite. Especially since she's a white woman who looks like Heather Locklear. Here's a recent pic of the woman and her daughters:
]

As I say, I do not KNOW jack about any of the specific cases. So, I kept my comments to reasons for and against. In my view, they can't allow this. That said, CPS could probably use some more resources and channels for really bad cases they know they can't make or can't make as fast as circumstances may warrant.

Which used to be the point of a judge in the first place.

 

[mAlice]

“How in the world could a person in the shoes of your clients possibly believe that it was appropriate to use perjury and false evidence” to remove a child from a parent, Trott asked. “How could they possibly not be in notice that you can’t do that?”

^This^

So now there has to be a specific law that says social workers can't lie when trying to take children from their parents? Seriously?? That's ridiculous and why lawyers who argue these suits should be strapped to the chair.

However, here's the background:
http://www.ocregister.com/taxdollars/strong-478024-county-fogarty.html

Fogarty-Hardwick gave her ex-husband full custody in 2002, hoping to protect her daughters. She was then allowed two supervised visits a month for two years. She eventually won 50-50 custody in 2006.

Not enough information to really tell, but there's a reason why this woman was only allowed two supervised visits a month with her kids. It could be that her ex husband is a douche and the two social workers were in his pocket, but it's more likely that she was involved in drugs and other activities that endanger her children. But if that's the case, the kids would go live with their dad instead of foster care. What I know - that I'd lay money on - is that they didn't just pick her name out of the phone book and decide to trump up a case to take her children from her.

I'm still searching for more info from other sources, but all I can find are interviews with the mother - and what's she gonna say? Daily Kos has a story, but they're putting a racial spin on it - surprise surprise - because apparently they're not aware that the mother is white and attractive. So far nothing on how this all started in the first place.

My big issue is that there is even a question as to whether or not it should be okay to lie under oath, for any reason. No. Simple. Just no. Even if these girls should have been removed, the case still has to stand on it's own legs. You can't make #### up. I've heard enough stories about children being removed from their homes for no reason, and other children left in homes that ended up dying at the hands of their parents or guardians. I'll tell you something else, since everyone knows I'm a conspiracy theorist anyway...where do these kids go, that don't really need to be removed from their homes and families? For that matter, where do all the children go? How many of them end up on the street? How many end up being trafficked? Everything the government touches turns to ####. Get the government out of our homes, out of our schools. This stuff scares the hell outta' me.

 

[vraiblonde]

My big issue is that there is even a question as to whether or not it should be okay to lie under oath, for any reason. No. Simple. Just no. Even if these girls should have been removed, the case still has to stand on it's own legs. You can't make #### up. I've heard enough stories about children being removed from their homes for no reason, and other children left in homes that ended up dying at the hands of their parents or guardians. I'll tell you something else, since everyone knows I'm a conspiracy theorist anyway...where do these kids go, that don't really need to be removed from their homes and families? For that matter, where do all the children go? How many of them end up on the street? How many end up being trafficked? Everything the government touches turns to ####. Get the government out of our homes, out of our schools. This stuff scares the hell outta' me.

Oh, I agree with you - if they're going as far as to remove children from a home or deny parental visitation, they shouldn't have to lie. But this story is incomplete and being spun toward outrage against the "system" in defense of a "perfectly innocent mother of two". And that cannot possibly be the truth. I'm outraged with the system as well, for a variety of reasons, I just don't like to be outraged, then find out that this woman was doing something so awful that I too would have been tempted to lie to get her kids out of there.

 

[Larry Gude]

My big issue is that there is even a question as to whether or not it should be okay to lie under oath, for any reason. No. Simple. Just no. Even if these girls should have been removed, the case still has to stand on it's own legs. You can't make #### up. I've heard enough stories about children being removed from their homes for no reason, and other children left in homes that ended up dying at the hands of their parents or guardians. I'll tell you something else, since everyone knows I'm a conspiracy theorist anyway...where do these kids go, that don't really need to be removed from their homes and families? For that matter, where do all the children go? How many of them end up on the street? How many end up being trafficked? Everything the government touches turns to ####. Get the government out of our homes, out of our schools. This stuff scares the hell outta' me.

Yeah? And how many kids were destroyed or died because of the freaking letter of the law when people wouldn't speak up? How many could have had a chance had someone at the time and place been willing to lie, and risk the judgment later, to save someone?

It's like Miranda. The ####er was guilty as hell. I think if a cop believes enough or a CPA person, knows enough, do the right thing and take your chances that the judge and jury will understand. Pay a fine, lose a rank, maybe some other sanction, sure but you saved someone over the letter of the law. Just be sure. It is NO better that someone should suffer more or die because the law was followed than it is were it to happen in spite of the law.

That's what judges and juries are, or used to be, for.

 

[This_person]

I"m lost as to why this isn't in the joke section. Are we really discussing whether or not perjury is legal if the government really wants to do something?

 

[Merlin99]

My big issue is that there is even a question as to whether or not it should be okay to lie under oath, for any reason. No. Simple. Just no. Even if these girls should have been removed, the case still has to stand on it's own legs. You can't make #### up. I've heard enough stories about children being removed from their homes for no reason, and other children left in homes that ended up dying at the hands of their parents or guardians. I'll tell you something else, since everyone knows I'm a conspiracy theorist anyway...where do these kids go, that don't really need to be removed from their homes and families? For that matter, where do all the children go? How many of them end up on the street? How many end up being trafficked? Everything the government touches turns to ####. Get the government out of our homes, out of our schools. This stuff scares the hell outta' me.

the first time it's legal for anyone to lie under oath, taking an oath will be worthless.

 

[mAlice]

the first time it's legal for anyone to lie under oath, taking an oath will be worthless.

It's pretty close to worthless now. When you take an oath to tell the truth, "so help me God"...well, if you don't believe in God, that's pretty worthless.