Solar for the home

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
And for me, specifically - Trinity Solar.

I now know two households that have gone this way. They both say they love the way it's working for them.
Over the last ten years, virtually every article I've read on the subject suggests that - at best - solar might allow you to pull even.
That is, if you spill out twenty grand on equipment, over its life you'll save about that much if you're lucky.
If you lease, by the time your lease is up, you won't have really saved a nickel.

Who has done it, and done it for - A WHILE? We typically pay between 375-400 for electricity each month.
Over the last ten years, I've replaced everything I can in the household with more efficient versions - I've even replaced the well,
which was probably working overtime to squeeze a few drops out of the aquifer.

Every analysis I've seen strongly suggests - solar won't help me much.
Tell me I'm wrong.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
And for me, specifically - Trinity Solar.

I now know two households that have gone this way. They both say they love the way it's working for them.
Over the last ten years, virtually every article I've read on the subject suggests that - at best - solar might allow you to pull even.
That is, if you spill out twenty grand on equipment, over its life you'll save about that much if you're lucky.
If you lease, by the time your lease is up, you won't have really saved a nickel.

Who has done it, and done it for - A WHILE? We typically pay between 375-400 for electricity each month.
Over the last ten years, I've replaced everything I can in the household with more efficient versions - I've even replaced the well,
which was probably working overtime to squeeze a few drops out of the aquifer.

Every analysis I've seen strongly suggests - solar won't help me much.
Tell me I'm wrong.

375 to 400 a month, you running a grow room?
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
That is my average... :cool:

Crap, I feel bad when my bill is over 150, yearly average is just under 100 a month, electric heat, hot water, AC, household lights and small appliances. I do have a gas range that runs me about 10 a month.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
That seems like an excessive electric bill unless your house is electric everything. My bill has been about $140 for the past 3-4 months.

Regardless, solar paybacks take a TON of time. 20+ years on average and the only thing that makes it more palatable are govt. incentives.
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
Solar equipment is getting pretty dang cheap, and usually now represents about 25-30% of the cost of installation. And with subsidies included some of the more solar friendly locations (with more sun, net metering, etc.) in the US can repay the total cost in under 5 years. I have friends and family in California that installed their systems 8-10 years ago (at almost 3 times todays rates) that are already in the positive.

In Maryland things aren't quite so rosy. Labor is more expensive (less migrant labor doing roofing to push the cost down), the suns rays pass through more atmosphere and produce less energy, and you don't get hardly squat for generating more than you use.

So, if you are ALREADY going to get a new roof, or are planning an array as part of new construction, and you size it generate below your nominal usage, and you qualify for the tax credits, it might be a good choice to purchase. Especially if you can pay for it without taking out a loan (certainly don't roll it into your mortgage and pay interest for 15-30 years).

Now, my personal opinion, it might be beneficial to take advantage of one of these fly by night companies as long as you can get locked in on no yearly cost escalation (or very low, sub 2%). I believe some of the smaller outfits are operating at a huge loss and burning through venture capital with the hopes that their escalating rates will bring in larger future revenue as long as they can survive long enough to collect. I'm betting they wont, and when they are about to go out of business they may offer to sell you the solar installed on your house for firesale pricing.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
That seems like an excessive electric bill unless your house is electric everything.

It's electric everything. 3300-3400 sq ft. Old brick home, hard to insulate.
68 degree in winter, 78 in summer. Timers on everything. If it ain't turned off and needs to be, it turns itself off.

The bill isn't the problem - what I want to know is if solar with be worth it.
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
Regardless, solar paybacks take a TON of time. 20+ years on average and the only thing that makes it more palatable are govt. incentives.

Even with zero subsidies and in unfriendly solar areas (like MD) it no longer takes 20+ years, it's about half of that. In places that get lots of sun, have friendly utilities, and if you can get the incentives its often 4-5 years. Your information is very out of date.

Even so, I wouldn't do it around here. That said, I run my outbuildings off of panels I built (from tabbed cells), cheapo Chinese charge controllers, and golf cart batteries and the whole setup cost me less than running actual electrical to those buildings would have.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
one of these fly by night companies as long as you can get locked in on no yearly cost escalation (or very low, sub 2%). I believe some of the smaller outfits are operating at a huge loss and burning through venture capital with the hopes that their escalating rates will bring in larger future revenue as long as they can survive long enough to collect.

THAT is what I'm fearing, and that even if they fold, I'll still be on the hook for whoever cleans it up.
Some of these companies basically have contracts saying, they can hike the fees if they want to, and you're technically buying electric from THEM, and they are selling electric from your roof to SMECO.

Since equipment deteriorates over time - and they have the means to raise your rates - seems like a guarantee you'll get squeezed.
 
Crap, I feel bad when my bill is over 150, yearly average is just under 100 a month, electric heat, hot water, AC, household lights and small appliances. I do have a gas range that runs me about 10 a month.
I'm all electric. 1 full size freezer, 3 full size fridges, 2 heat pumps, 2 washers/dryers, 5 TVs, and a king-size waterbed being constantly heated to just the right temp. I don't question why my bill is higher then others. I also don't believe now is the time to jump into solar because all packages currently offered to homeowners now are designed to profit the middle-man company and the electric company pulling into their grid. I also don't trust losing the long term integrity of my roof resulting from installation. What burns me the most is that we are not allowed to bank power for outages or brownouts and there is no way in hell that long term the electric and solar companies will be letting houses get the upper hand. Agreements and regulations will continue to morph as needed to ensure profitability for all but the consumer.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Even with zero subsidies and in unfriendly solar areas (like MD) it no longer takes 20+ years, it's about half of that. In places that get lots of sun, have friendly utilities, and if you can get the incentives its often 4-5 years. Your information is very out of date.

Even so, I wouldn't do it around here. That said, I run my outbuildings off of panels I built (from tabbed cells), cheapo Chinese charge controllers, and golf cart batteries and the whole setup cost me less than running actual electrical to those buildings would have.

I just did a ROI payback on a 40kW rooftop system in Cecil County. Payback was 25 years without incentives and the building is oriented at the perfect angle for maximum sunlight. Unless something has changed in a few months...
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
THAT is what I'm fearing, and that even if they fold, I'll still be on the hook for whoever cleans it up.
Some of these companies basically have contracts saying, they can hike the fees if they want to, and you're technically buying electric from THEM, and they are selling electric from your roof to SMECO.

Since equipment deteriorates over time - and they have the means to raise your rates - seems like a guarantee you'll get squeezed.

They aren't selling anything to SMECO unless they over provisioned (in which case they will lose money, so they shouldn't do it). The panels literally run your meter backwards, and their converter will typically track generated KW which is what they will charge you.

But you are 100% that it's the tricky language in the contract where they hope to get their money. Here's the thing though, it's all negotiable. Tell them you don't want any escalation and see what they say. The saleman work on commission and have sales quotas, they might be willing to make a deal where they don't make any money or the company even loses money in order to meet quota. Even if they don't generate future revenue, installed capacity looks good for the company (when trying to drum up more VC) and of course every install is an advertisement for their company.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
It's electric everything. 3300-3400 sq ft. Old brick home, hard to insulate.
68 degree in winter, 78 in summer. Timers on everything. If it ain't turned off and needs to be, it turns itself off.

The bill isn't the problem - what I want to know is if solar with be worth it.

Like you've said, there's two options. Buy outright and take the tax incentives offered, or lease and have a slightly smaller electric bill. My cousin has panels on his roof (Solar City) and said he loves it. Leasing has nuances such as cost escalations, as mentioned, and can differ from company to company but generally, you're not on the hook for much other than not getting the subsidies or incentives. You also are not getting the full return from the PV system (as expected, the companies have to make money also). Buying outright gives you the incentives directly, you see all the benefit, but all the cost. You also get all the responsibility if something fails.

Modern equipment is guaranteed for 20 years minimum so I wouldn't worry too much about the efficiency falling off.
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
I just did a ROI payback on a 40kW rooftop system in Cecil County. Payback was 25 years without incentives and the building is oriented at the perfect angle for maximum sunlight. Unless something has changed in a few months...

Jebus. Get a couple of other quotes, check installers from VA. There is a subReddit for people to compare solar installation costs and 20+ years just doesn't jibe with what most people are getting.

Of course I have been talking about grid connected, if you are using batteries then you are probably getting a good quote. Batteries are expensive and require you to overprovision rather than under.

For a grid-connected 40kw system to make sense you would need to be using 5000+ KWhs per month, considerably more than your average customer.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Jebus. Get a couple of other quotes, check installers from VA. There is a subReddit for people to compare solar installation costs and 20+ years just doesn't jibe with what most people are getting.

Of course I have been talking about grid connected, if you are using batteries then you are probably getting a good quote. Batteries are expensive and require you to overprovision rather than under.

For a grid-connected 40kw system to make sense you would need to be using 5000+ KWhs per month, considerably more than your average customer.

This isn't a quote. This was an engineer's calculation based on nation-wide numbers and a calculated amount of sunlight in that particular location.

This was a net metered, grid connected PV system with no storage capacity. Not a residential application.

I'm not saying its gospel, and I'm sure there are people getting less payback, but we can't use "Jim had a similar system and his payback was 10 years. I saw it on Reddit." when meeting with our clients. Besides, if we say 20 years, and it takes 10. Awesome.
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
This isn't a quote. This was an engineer's calculation based on nation-wide numbers and a calculated amount of sunlight in that particular location.

Well good luck to you. But I would just add that given the majority of your cost will be labor, a binding quote is more valuable than an engineer's calculation in determining your costs. And nation-wide numbers are hooey, unless you have ever paid the nationwide price for a gallon of gas or milk (I sure haven't).
 
I'm all electric. 1 full size freezer, 3 full size fridges, 2 heat pumps, 2 washers/dryers, 5 TVs, and a king-size waterbed being constantly heated to just the right temp. I don't question why my bill is higher then others. I also don't believe now is the time to jump into solar because all packages currently offered to homeowners now are designed to profit the middle-man company and the electric company pulling into their grid. I also don't trust losing the long term integrity of my roof resulting from installation. What burns me the most is that we are not allowed to bank power for outages or brownouts and there is no way in hell that long term the electric and solar companies will be letting houses get the upper hand. Agreements and regulations will continue to morph as needed to ensure profitability for all but the consumer.

My last 4 bills have been under $90. I have a full size fridge, wine fridge, freezer, dehumidifier in the basement, 2 tvs, one of which is almost always on, power tools constantly, a very old hot water heater, electric dryer.... It spikes in the summer for 2 or 3 months to $250 when the A/C is running constantly.

BUT... much of my frequent use lighting has been converted to LEDs, other lights are on timers or motion triggered so I can't forget to turn them off, I use a pellet stove all winter to heat (the oil furnace takes a lot more juice than you would think...), so lots of ways to counter higher KWH usage.

There would be absolutely no reason for me to go solar. It would cost far more in the long run and add costs for maintenance.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Even so, I wouldn't do it around here. That said, I run my outbuildings off of panels I built (from tabbed cells), cheapo Chinese charge controllers, and golf cart batteries and the whole setup cost me less than running actual electrical to those buildings would have.

I'm putting the same kind of system together to provide the lighting power for a new garage and storage building we're putting up on our "off the grid" island. I figured it was easier than trenching a power line the 200' from the generator shed. The component parts are pretty cheap nowadays...I bought a package deal of panels plus automatic battery charger and then some golf cart batters and a cheapo power inverter.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Well good luck to you. But I would just add that given the majority of your cost will be labor, a binding quote is more valuable than an engineer's calculation in determining your costs. And nation-wide numbers are hooey, unless you have ever paid the nationwide price for a gallon of gas or milk (I sure haven't).

You'd think companies would be jumping all over this, but believe it or not I couldn't find a single company who wanted the work. Even Solar City turned it down.

In terms of the overall project, we have to develop an engineer's probable construction cost. While a quote could be less, it could be what our estimate says. So we have to base it on nationwide numbers (oftentimes they have a correction factor for the area the work is in). Much like is done using RSMeans for construction pricing.

You're right, a bulk of the cost is installation. I think the cost per watt is around $3.50, with a little over $1.00/watt being the actual PV system (panels and inverters).
 
I'm putting the same kind of system together to provide the lighting power for a new garage and storage building we're putting up on our "off the grid" island. I figured it was easier than trenching a power line the 200' from the generator shed. The component parts are pretty cheap nowadays...I bought a package deal of panels plus automatic battery charger and then some golf cart batters and a cheapo power inverter.
Homemade systems like this are far more feasible now if you use LED lighting. The difference in power draw on an LED vs any other lighting is dramatic.
 
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