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Thread: Spicer WasNot The Only One .......

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    Happened just yesterday when I declared Russia shared a border with Syria. It happens ALL the time in conversation, even when people don't admit it. YOU make me rethink my point, constantly, such as your point about 'we're always subject to propaganda'. If I were unsympathetic to gays, that doesn't prevent me from at least listening to someone who is when they say something I can't refute such as a positive experience they may have had. Jinx, and others, are totalitarian, in their thinking; THEY don't like gays who are mentally ill thus if YOU claim to have a gay friend and positive experiences either you're not telling the truth OR YOU are also mentally ill.

    And we're not talking about gays per se. The Holocaust is an ENORMOUS issue and asking questions about it, some of the details, gets you attacked when it should start conversation. It's like climate change; don't agree on EVERY detail, you're a denier.

    And jinx goes on to prove my theory of how we're all a LOT more alike than we're comfortable coming to grips with. He would point out the dogmatic manner of the people who are SURE Climate Change is man made and comes mostly from SUV's and that CO2 is the primary cause and IS warming the planet in a range that WILL kill us all in this amount of time; the science is SETTLED. He's skeptical there and a thinking person on it, interested in the details as opposed to swallowing the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. Yet on the holocaust, he's dogmatic.
    Well, I don't think of being incorrect on facts as being the same as changing your mind. You might believe that the states need to be more empowered, but if you think there's 57 of them, that's not an opinion, that's just wrong.

    I do believe that the Holocaust is a tremendously documented event and even today, there are STILL people who were either survivors or witnesses. I've known only a few bona fide deniers, and their argument is rooted in belief, where they have cherry-picked very poor data to come up with an absurd version of the truth. As an aside - my father has passed away but he was an eyewitness to the plane hitting the Pentagon, and I cite that as proof to the ridiculous missile conspiracy. Unless someone pulled off a switcheroo so amazing that David Copperfield would be impressed - it happened. I have since read several accounts corroborating the idea that gassing was not efficient but it made mass killing more palatable to the men assigned to do it, because when they did otherwise, they had soldiers flinch at the idea. Some accounts existed in news events where Germans gave testimony.

    (You know what surprises me? There's a movie coming out soon about the *Armenian Genocide*. You should read the different opinions. I'll bet you can guess what they say on al-Jazeera about the mass killing of an ethnic Christian group at the hands of Muslims).

    Specifically on climate change - I remain skeptical that the change will be catastrophic - or even significant. Yes, I've seen all kinds of data and argumentation on the subject - and reasonable guesses as to why some things have not occurred. Until I see repeatable verifiable proof and claims that actually come true, I will remain skeptical. I'm seeing even more data lately that is saying we track much more closely with the cycles of the sun than anything else.

    ANYWAY -

    I do maintain that people change their minds after dealing with something away from their opinion - given time to ruminate - and then allow experience and life to persuade them. I was once very unsympathetic to gay men. Why? Because I was molested by one when I was drunk. I still remember. It formed my first opinions. Life later changed my mind. These kinds of issues - the ones that are affected and shaped by how we FEEL - life does that. "Facts" don't. We once had a girl stay with us who was *TERRIFIED* of dogs. Even my own daughter was of all animals. The reason? They grew up around animals that attack you. Experience shapes you.
    Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong". Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by SamSpade View Post
    Well, I don't think of being incorrect on facts as being the same as changing your mind. You might believe that the states need to be more empowered, but if you think there's 57 of them, that's not an opinion, that's just wrong. .
    Agreed which is why I used the example of you and your propaganda argument. When you wrote it, it made me think, yeah, an awful lot of stuff IS trying to manipulate you.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    Agreed which is why I used the example of you and your propaganda argument. When you wrote it, it made me think, yeah, an awful lot of stuff IS trying to manipulate you.
    You know, I notice it a lot more now that there is a Republican president because his actions remain the center of the news cycle.
    You'll see something simple being reported as "controversial" or 'possibly' unconstitutional. The phrasing is intended to sway public opinion while not necessarily being false.
    I'm still kind of laughing at the meat loaf story.

    The best example I can recall was during the floods after Katrina, where a white family was "foraging" for food, but a black family was "looting" (different news sources, VERY similar pictures).
    They're doing the same thing, but one is being described as desperate, and the other as criminal - even though they are trying to get *FOOD*.
    Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong". Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by SamSpade View Post
    I do believe that the Holocaust is a tremendously documented event and even today, there are STILL people who were either survivors or witnesses. I've known only a few bona fide deniers, .
    I don't know any. Point here is an argument over what Spicer said, and Mathews and others. The evidence of mass, system murder of Jew's BY gas has a LOT of holes in it. Not the mass murder itself. There is evidence that 6 million is overblown by a couple million but that is not denial, it's a detail and details ought to matter. There is evidence that anywhere between 20 and 60 million Russians were killed BY Stalin BEFORE the war and that is, like Armenia, slowly coming out. Heck, 96,000 Germans of the 6th Army laid down their arms at Stalingrad. Only 3-4,000 ever went home. Why bother gassing anyone when you can work or starve them to death or simply let them die by exposure? The Germans used Zyklon B specifically to try and wring as much slave labor as possible out of their captives. It would have been a rube Goldberg way of killing en masse. But, hey, the Russians say it's so, so, must be.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    I don't know any. Point here is an argument over what Spicer said, and Mathews and others. The evidence of mass, system murder of Jew's BY gas has a LOT of holes in it. Not the mass murder itself. There is evidence that 6 million is overblown by a couple million but that is not denial, it's a detail and details ought to matter.
    We have testimony - BRAGGING actually - by people like Eichmann who said he'd leap into his grave laughing that he was responsible for killing 5 million Jews.
    We have diaries of people like Goebbels and Eichmann and Himmler.

    I don't know of Stalin's mass murder being something that is "slowly coming out". I first read about it in a book by Hedrick Smith called "The Russians" back in '75. And he only mentioned it as a way of observing that Soviet young adults didn't know something the West knew a LOT about. The Armenian genocide is something I've known at least since my teens, and learned more as I met Turks - and Kurds.

    My observations with conspiracy theories is - they depend heavily on questioning existing data on the basis of what ISN'T there - as in "Why didn't they do this?".
    It can be a valid question, but it's not an answer. Well, they didn't GAS everyone - ok, how DID the mounds of dead bodies get there? There's evidence - and lack of evidence.
    Evidence points to one thing - lack of it - well, it's not an answer.
    Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong". Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  6. #36
    I think Larry might be right... Or it might have been Space Aliens.

    A toss up.

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Wishbone View Post
    I think Larry might be right... Or it might have been Space Aliens.

    A toss up.
    Right about what? My only claim is that Spicer, and Mathews, have a point in regards to Hitler and WMD. The man was evil but we, because it's what people do, try and heap every last drop of evil on to as few scapegoats as possible to avoid our own sins.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by SamSpade View Post
    We have testimony - BRAGGING actually - by people like Eichmann who said he'd leap into his grave laughing that he was responsible for killing 5 million Jews.
    We have diaries of people like Goebbels and Eichmann and Himmler. .
    Several of which have been shown to be flat out forgeries, written on paper and written with ink made AFTER the war...and their deaths. And you seemed to have left out one name that ought to be pretty easy to show.
    Feel free to surf around a little. Give it a little time. You'll either have everything you're sure of confirmed and reinforced or maybe have a few questions, none of which change the fact that Jews WERE mass murdered. Only some of the details. And why; to cover up allied atrocities.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  9. #39
    INGSOC GURPS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    That's not a hair. That's the whole thing. Being dogmatic is the antithesis of skepticism. Humans are susceptible and inclined towards both. It is innate in us and we're not consistent.
    so the Russians lied about People Gassed in the Showers ?
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
    - Robert J. Hanlon.

    “There is a deeply anti-democratic undercurrent to much of the criticism of the new president, borne aloft by an assumption that democracy is too important to be left to the voters.”

  10. #40
    INGSOC GURPS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamSpade View Post
    I have since read several accounts corroborating the idea that gassing was not efficient but it made mass killing more palatable to the men assigned to do it, because when they did otherwise, they had soldiers flinch at the idea. Some accounts existed in news events where Germans gave testimony.
    Indeed ....

    This guy Vasily Blokhin had no problem personally murdering 7,000 Polish Officers [and others]


    Blokhin initially decided on an ambitious quota of 300 executions per night; and engineered an efficient system in which the prisoners were individually led to a small antechamber—which had been painted red and was known as the "Leninist room"—for a brief and cursory positive identification, before being handcuffed and led into the execution room next door. The room was specially designed with padded walls for soundproofing, a sloping concrete floor with a drain and hose, and a log wall for the prisoners to stand against. Blokhin would stand waiting behind the door in his executioner garb: a leather butcher's apron, leather hat, and shoulder-length leather gloves. Then, without a hearing, the reading of a sentence or any other formalities, each prisoner was brought in and restrained by guards while Blokhin shot him once in the base of the skull with a German Walther Model 2 .25 ACP pistol. He had brought a briefcase full of his own Walther pistols, since he did not trust the reliability of the standard-issue Soviet TT-30 for the frequent, heavy use he intended. The use of a German pocket pistol, which was commonly carried by German police and intelligence agents, also provided plausible deniability of the executions if the bodies were discovered later.[16]

    An estimated 30 local NKVD agents, guards and drivers were pressed into service to escort prisoners to the basement, confirm identification, then remove the bodies and hose down the blood after each execution. Although some of the executions were carried out by Senior Lieutenant of State Security Andrei Rubanov, Blokhin was the primary executioner and, true to his reputation, liked to work continuously and rapidly without interruption.[14] In keeping with NKVD policy and the overall "wet" nature of the operation, the executions were conducted at night, starting at dark and continuing until just prior to dawn. The bodies were continuously loaded onto covered flat-bed trucks through a back door in the execution chamber and trucked, twice a night, to Mednoye, where Blokhin had arranged for a bulldozer and two NKVD drivers to dispose of bodies at an unfenced site. Each night, 24–25 trenches, measuring eight to 10 meters (24.3 to 32.8 feet) total, were dug to hold that night's corpses, and each trench was covered up before dawn.[17]

    Blokhin and his team worked without pause for 10 hours each night, with Blokhin executing an average of one prisoner every three minutes.[3] At the end of the night, Blokhin provided vodka to all his men.[18] On 27 April 1940, Blokhin secretly received the Order of the Red Banner and a modest monthly pay premium as a reward from Joseph Stalin for his "skill and organization in the effective carrying out of special tasks".[19][20] His count of 7,000 shot in 28 days remains the most organized and protracted mass murder by a single individual on record,[3] and saw him being named the Guinness World Record holder for 'Most Prolific Executioner' in 2010.[4]
    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
    - Robert J. Hanlon.

    “There is a deeply anti-democratic undercurrent to much of the criticism of the new president, borne aloft by an assumption that democracy is too important to be left to the voters.”

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