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Thread: Patriots day...

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by SamSpade View Post
    I don't think I have EVER used the term nationalist to describe myself, even if I totally deserve the textbook description.
    Ditto "jingoist". Just not words I would use, so the question makes no sense unless I'm operating under an established definition.

    I consider myself patriotic. I think this nation is the finest one in human history.

    I don't dismiss all of its flaws as irrelevant - just as I don't with my own family (my wife and kids) or the one I grew up with (my siblings and parents).
    I knew my father's flaws, but he will always be my personal hero and the one person I want most to be like. Ditto my mom.
    I probably know her flaws even more, because they were visible. I love my siblings but it wasn't all roses.

    I have no delusions about the abilities and limitations of my own family but I do believe taken all in all, they are the sweetest and loveliest children I know.

    So you might get an idea about how I feel about this country - I know its past. I also know what it has done, the things it might have done but chose not to.
    I've quoted before a person whose politics I detest - Bill Maher - but he once observed that when ANY nation holds power over the world, they kick the #### out of it (my words).
    He said no superpower in history has tried so hard to trod so lightly on the rest of the world (his words). That's noble.
    I love the natural beauty of this country. When you get out and travel, you're bound to meet a lot of #######s - but you'll be amazed by the people.

    So, that's interesting. By your own admission you're probably more nationalistic and for very good reasons, than purely patriotic. Again, my interest here is the Dione piece as it got me to thinking. He's simply defending patriots day, a Boston thing, as being better than 'nationalists' day and dragging, of course, Hitler into it and arguing nationalism is the mindless sense of superiority whereby patriotism is the way to be. And he, and the left, argued quite the opposite during Bush 43 because of the emphasis on patriotism, the lapel pin, all of that.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    Again, my interest here is the Dione piece as it got me to thinking. He's simply defending patriots day, a Boston thing....
    And I agree with that much - I lived on the North Shore for five years and for three of them, I lived within a short bike ride to the Lexington Green.
    Every single April 19th I would manage to forget to get up and be there at 6am for the re-enactment (friends would tell me, ya ain't missing a lot).
    Every employer I had there would always give us the day off, and the Boston Marathon would be playing on any TV in the area stores and bars.

    To me, this was OUR holiday, just as Texas celebrates their own Texas Independence Day, Hawaii has King Kamehameha Day, Louisiana (and Alabama) have Mardi Gras (as an actual state holiday).
    I thought of it is history and culture.

    Part of the thing that makes me love this country so much is something I didn't always see elsewhere nor do I read about - other nations, parts of nations - they self-identify because of blood. Genes. Ethnicity, race and so on. Some countries have many such parts of their country where they speak their own language, have a distinctive culture and history. But it's genes.
    You can live in France, have children in France and learn the language and culture. Ditto Japan, China, Spain, Turkey and so on. But you'll never be French.
    At least, not in your lifetime. A few hundred years hence, your descendants will probably be considered French, but the nation identifies with bloodlines.
    The names of the nations make that plain.

    America has no such distinction. To put it in simplest terms, America and being American is based mostly on - an idea.
    Come here, go through the process, raise your hand, take the oath - you're an American. As American as anyone else.
    Depending on your nation of origin - some might have trouble with it for a while. After 9/11 they had that video where people of all types just repeated the same phrase - "I am an American".
    America is based on an idea of what a country should be, and if it doesn't hold up to its ideal, it's still there.
    Insults are the arguments employed by those who are in the wrong". Jean-Jacques Rousseau

  3. #13
    Oldtimer Ken King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    ...do you consider yourself a patriot or a nationalist? Why?

    I would say I align more with being a patriot. Why? For me the only difference between the terms is in one's willingness to not only support his nation (not blindly mind you), but to defend it as well.

    Now, how about you? How do you define yourself?

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken King View Post
    I would say I align more with being a patriot. Why? For me the only difference between the terms is in one's willingness to not only support his nation (not blindly mind you), but to defend it as well.

    Now, how about you? How do you define yourself?
    I think of myself as more nationalistic than patriotic.

    Again, as I mentioned, I think of patriotism as being more symbolic, more 'my country right or wrong', wear the lapel pin, willing to sacrifice principles if it's labeled as the patriotic thing to do (the Patriot Act). And I think of nationalism as being about the US and the specifics that make it good and special, about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, about the ideas behind the patriotism. You, me, can be patriotic and be wrong about it, betraying the nations principles. If you're nationalistic, it's about ideas, not feelings.

    In my view, it was patriotic to support the Patriot Act. It was a betrayal of the values of the Constitution to do so.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  5. #15
    Oldtimer Ken King's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    I think of myself as more nationalistic than patriotic.

    Again, as I mentioned, I think of patriotism as being more symbolic, more 'my country right or wrong', wear the lapel pin, willing to sacrifice principles if it's labeled as the patriotic thing to do (the Patriot Act). And I think of nationalism as being about the US and the specifics that make it good and special, about the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, about the ideas behind the patriotism. You, me, can be patriotic and be wrong about it, betraying the nations principles. If you're nationalistic, it's about ideas, not feelings.

    In my view, it was patriotic to support the Patriot Act. It was a betrayal of the values of the Constitution to do so.
    And if you recall, I was one that felt the Patriot Act was an abomination and unneeded; you thought there wasn't a damn thing wrong with it.

  6. #16
    Board Mommy vraiblonde's Avatar
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    I am a patriot in that I love this country and am loyal to the United States of America. I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands.

    I am a nationalist in that I firmly and without a doubt believe that the US is the best country in the world, that we are indeed superior, and every other country is a shot hole compared to us.

    Are we perfect? No.
    Do we have our problems? Of course.
    Do we have things in our past that are shameful? Absolutely.

    But here in the good old US of A, we make an attempt to fix our problems. We fought a civil war to fix one of our glaring problems. We are constantly evolving and getting better, and that's more than you can say for most other countries. Protesters do a grave disservice to our country when they don vagina hats and run amok like idiots; they slap the face of the Americans in our past who protested to affect real change, such as independence for our country, or to end slavery. But, because we're the coolest country EVER, they have the right to make fools of themselves and make their voice heard.

    I challenge anyone to name one country that is better overall than the US.
    "Too much agreement kills a chat."
    ~Eldridge Cleaver

  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ken King View Post
    And if you recall, I was one that felt the Patriot Act was an abomination and unneeded; you thought there wasn't a damn thing wrong with it.
    Yup and the Iraq War Resolution. I was a total Dubbya Fan Boy. Believed in him, the mission, the goals, whatever it took to outsmart and outflank those dang Democrats for the greater good!

    And I learned my lesson well; the founders built the thing to be sound. If we simply honored it and respected it.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  8. #18
    Board Mommy vraiblonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamSpade View Post
    Part of the thing that makes me love this country so much is something I didn't always see elsewhere nor do I read about - other nations, parts of nations - they self-identify because of blood. Genes. Ethnicity, race and so on. Some countries have many such parts of their country where they speak their own language, have a distinctive culture and history. But it's genes.
    You can live in France, have children in France and learn the language and culture. Ditto Japan, China, Spain, Turkey and so on. But you'll never be French.
    At least, not in your lifetime. A few hundred years hence, your descendants will probably be considered French, but the nation identifies with bloodlines.
    The names of the nations make that plain.
    This is my favorite thing about the US: we look like the world. That Asian looking kid? That's an American. The Latino woman? She's an American, too. They aren't "from" some other country - they're from here and just happen to have other ancestry that makes them not white. The dark skinned middle eastern looking man can either be an immigrant, or he can be second generation American speaking in completely unaccented English.

    Even the most rural American has eaten Chinese food or a taco in his life. We don't have "American" food, we have world cuisine.

    The US is the world, and that's what makes us so cool.
    "Too much agreement kills a chat."
    ~Eldridge Cleaver

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by vraiblonde View Post
    I am a patriot in that I love this country and am loyal to the United States of America. I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic for which it stands.

    I am a nationalist in that I firmly and without a doubt believe that the US is the best country in the world, that we are indeed superior, and every other country is a shot hole compared to us.

    Are we perfect? No.
    Do we have our problems? Of course.
    Do we have things in our past that are shameful? Absolutely.

    But here in the good old US of A, we make an attempt to fix our problems. We fought a civil war to fix one of our glaring problems. We are constantly evolving and getting better, and that's more than you can say for most other countries. Protesters do a grave disservice to our country when they don vagina hats and run amok like idiots; they slap the face of the Americans in our past who protested to affect real change, such as independence for our country, or to end slavery. But, because we're the coolest country EVER, they have the right to make fools of themselves and make their voice heard.

    I challenge anyone to name one country that is better overall than the US.
    That's kind of an interesting rant...you spend the bulk of your energy b!tching about all that is wrong...generally with little or no knowledge of the subject to back up your opinion...yet you complain in your little rant above that anyone else who b!tches does a "grave disservice to our country"??? The ability to b!tch is a standard of this country...though we are no longer unique in that category.

    Funny how you fail to mention those chanting "lock her up" at a political convention for all the world to see...the "her" being a political opponent...you decry "vagina hats" but ignore "lock her up"???

    What problems are we currently attempting to fix? We've made no attempt to fix our biggest problems in decades...Social Security is still on course to fail to make full payments (now less than 20 years away)...Medicare/Medicaid ARE going to explode (not ACA or "Obamaphones")....we spend more on defense than the next 7 or so countries combined...but we can't feed or shelter our poor? Our standing in the world fell as the Obama presidency proceeded...and our standing is tumbling under our new buffoon in chief with his merry band of unqualified stooges running around the world declaring a new and conflicting US policies every couple of days.

    The USA is a great country for the ideal it is supposed to stand for. Unfortunately, we do a piss poor job of living up to it. This site and the ignorance displayed here on a daily basis are a tremendous testament to what this country has lost.

    As for that country that may be better than ours...you may want to look to our north.

  10. #20
    Board Mommy vraiblonde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyjo View Post
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    "Too much agreement kills a chat."
    ~Eldridge Cleaver

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