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Thread: Higher Wages = Less JOBS

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    You're making a bunch of suppositions as though business owners all did the exact same thing in response. Labor costs are not 100% of product costs. In food service it's something like 1/3, tops. Most is lower and the majority of wages are tips.
    I would constantly take objection to objections of working people making more just as I will object to this quaint notion of 'market' driven.

    We are a ####ed up culture. We celebrate some mean ass MF'er who makes billions as being a success no matter how much monopoly power and gummint help or lying or cheating or stealing he did. He's a winner! And #### over even the suggestion of some schulmp making $1.5 an hour more.
    The supposition is based on the principle, which is how it works. When Ford started paying more, everyone else had to. There is a curve of wages, and when it gets skewed the outlier is rarely the one that is pulled back into line - everyone else readjusts.

    I do not believe in monopolies as an end state. Liberalism had a monopoly on news, then came Fox, and Limbaugh gave his services away to radio stations, etc., etc. Left alone, the monopoly is removed by one means or another.

    I don't object to anyone getting a good deal. I object when it is artificially forced upon others like this. The fact that the percentage of our population that is millionaire or above tells me that it is not some mean-ass MF'er that is the problem, because we're making 'em faster than we're making poor people.
    It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
    Jiddu Krisnamurti

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tommyjo View Post
    1. You point that the minimum income earner's pay is lost due to higher product costs...why is that stupid? Because there is not one bit of data in the article or in any article that shows the entire cost of living goes up because the min wage does.
    Really? Not in ANY article?

    What about this one: http://thesovereigninvestor.com/us-e...e-cost-living/

    Or, this one: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst.../#1381eaad1fac

    Or, this one: http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst.../#1333b0471ece

    Or, this one: http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answ...-inflation.asp

    I would offer you this toolkit to consider using next time "there is not one bit of data in the article"

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    2. The taxes of those min wage workers have not gone up. They are paying the same percentage...they have MORE dollars in their pockets for the same amount of work. They are NOT worse off...

    That was a really dumb post...
    Well, some maybe. But, the net effect is more people are out of a job, putting a higher burden on the economy, and (as shown) it is most likely that the cost of living has gone up, making those additional dollars to have a lower buying power. Look at the toolkit above, and try again.
    It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
    Jiddu Krisnamurti

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by This_person View Post
    The supposition is based on the principle, which is how it works. When Ford started paying more, everyone else had to. There is a curve of wages, and when it gets skewed the outlier is rarely the one that is pulled back into line - everyone else readjusts.

    Iple.
    So, then the argument is on how it actually works.

    Energy is not market driven. It's geopolitics. Healthcare is not market driven. It's monopolies. Wall street is not market driven, it's protected. Banking as well. Immigration it geopolitics. Gummint is nearly a fourth of the economy. Not a market force in sight. NAFTA, TPP, no market forces there.

    So, the mass of us, the majority, are supposed to play by your illusory 'market' forces?
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    So, then the argument is on how it actually works.

    Energy is not market driven. It's geopolitics.
    Of course energy is market driven. Do you know why nuclear plants always shut down in the spring and fall, not summer or winter? Because there's a lot more energy being used in summer and winter than spring or fall, so it is the cheapest time to refuel. Do you know why gas plants are going up like spring weeds? Because the price of natural gas dropped at the same time regulations on coal plants went through the roof. Market in supply of energy, market in when/where/how it is produced. Know why a nuclear operator makes more money than a coal plant operator? The requirements are much higher on the nuclear plant operator, and thus the qualifications are much harder to meet, making the supply of people able to do the job much smaller. Supply, demand, and cost (to the employer) all go hand in hand there. All market driven - every facet of it.

    I'm not even going after the rest, because we agree that government protections of some parts of the economy at the expense of others is not an acceptable thing, so there's no need for a mutual-admiration society going on.

    But, when it comes to who can do what job, and what a product (be it the employee or the service or the "thing") costs is all market-driven.
    It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
    Jiddu Krisnamurti

  5. #25
    Ah, ok. If you believe energy, one of the most regulated, politicized industries in the history of the planet is market driven, we're dealing with disparate realities.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  6. #26
    And I didn't pass judgment on what is acceptable or not in terms of gummint involvement. My entire point is that the more you make, the more able to handle lifes challenges, the more protected you are and the less able then the more you're on your own.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    Ah, ok. If you believe energy, one of the most regulated, politicized industries in the history of the planet is market driven, we're dealing with disparate realities.
    Maybe we understand "market driven" differently.

    What I'm saying is that the production of energy, where power plants are placed, how power plant employees are paid, and the general cost of energy is based on competitive markets, supply and demand of the consumer.

    What I think you're saying is that things like regulations on coal and nuclear, EPA reviews of power plant placement, tax and regulatory exemptions given to "green" energy products, actual subsidizing certain companies, etc., are all designed to force an industry in a certain path.

    If what I think you're saying is what you're saying, then we agree on that. But, what I'm saying is also true, and what you're saying is part of the "that shouldn't be happening" part of things.
    It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
    Jiddu Krisnamurti

  8. #28
    If there was remotely a free market in energy nuke would have ended coal a long time ago and natural gas could not compete with oil. These things are driven by geopolitics. Not markets. How much you think a cheeseburger would cost if it was sold under the same rules as a gallon of gas?
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  9. #29
    Again, I'm not arguing for or against. I'm arguing what is and how the least of us are totally at the mercy of gummint on most of the economy. That they'd like to make more from a system that protects 'market' advocates is normal behavior. That it would also benefit the overall economy, as I illustrated, seems to be the thing that can not be.
    ADHD; Interdisciplinary

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gude View Post
    And I didn't pass judgment on what is acceptable or not in terms of gummint involvement. My entire point is that the more you make, the more able to handle lifes challenges, the more protected you are and the less able then the more you're on your own.
    EVERYONE is on their own. Major corporations with lots to spend on politicians get special treatment, but that is not my thing to defend, it's the politician's. I don't agree with that.
    It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
    Jiddu Krisnamurti

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