Do Dems want to KEEP Obamacare?

[SamSpade]

Because I can't figure their angle UNLESS it's strictly political - that they want to protect an accomplishment of theirs regardless of the outcome.

And we also have SO many liberal talking heads whose message seems to be - it's not bad, it's helped so many people, let's just fix it, people like it, it just needs a little fixing.

Aside from two elements - Medicaid expansion and the provisions for pre-existing conditions and coverage until 26 - EVERYONE hates what's left.
Higher premiums, ridiculous deductibles - I have several friends who say the premiums they pay serve no purpose, because they're still paying the deductible - and increasingly limited choices.

Why can't both sides say - ok. Let's come up with a better solution, and just kill the old one?

If Obamacare survives - who "wins"? The Republicans, who couldn't kill it, or the Democrats - who protected it and OWN it?

Because I am sure the REST of us - lose.

 

[Wishbone]

Dems aren't worried because they want Single Payer anyway.

 

[stgislander]

I don't think it can be fixed, at least not by a group of professional politicians and staffers. Who then comes up with the plan... the insurance industry... the medical industry? We don't trust big government, but do we trust big insurance or big medicine or big pharma.

 

[SamSpade]

I can't think of an idea I trust - at least, none that have been proposed.

France has a sort of socialized system, but what is regulated is insurance and pricing - and medical professionals are part of the process.
I am not sure in this country if standardized costs are going to work - nor do I think we can rely on them to be low.

England has about the worst of both worlds and has a de facto single payer. The problem I see there is creeping government overreach.
Eventually government bureaucrats make decisions that supersede your OWN. That's outrageous.

I always thought that what we ONCE had was ok - you paid the doctor like anyone else, and you bought catastrophic insurance as a hedge against costly medical care.
Kind of like how we buy life or auto insurance. You don't use insurance to pay for every repair - and you shouldn't. It's there for things like accidents - not maintenance.
Life insurance is only useful if you DIE - otherwise, you're just dumping money down a hole. It's a gamble.

But medical insurance - for some reason, somewhere along the line - is used for EVERYTHING, and I have to think that part of it is that medical costs of ANY kind are simply too high to pay out of pocket.
Ever look at your Explanation of Benefits, or whatever it is you get? The costs for some of those routine tests - or the costs of pharmaceuticals - if you paid cash, you'd be broke in a cold second.

It seems to me that whatever the solution - the primary idea is to BRING COSTS DOWN. THEN premiums don't have to be high. Then you can HAVE catastrophic only plans that make sense.
Then people can actually forego insurance premiums and pay out of pocket. We need innovations like finding ways for people to pool better. To allow medical staff to include nurse practitioners, who don't require outrageous salaries
but are fully able to handle most day to day visits. We need to make medical schools less expensive - I realize that becoming a doctor is a very difficult and rigorous path - but we're now importing doctors, because we
can't keep up with demand and medical school is still out of reach for many.

But - I haven't seen a government solution that is either satisfactory NOW or isn't likely to become REALLY bad in the near future.

 

[Gilligan]

It seems to me that whatever the solution - the primary idea is to BRING COSTS DOWN. THEN premiums don't have to be high. Then you can HAVE catastrophic only plans that make sense.
Then people can actually forego insurance premiums and pay out of pocket.

I've found that paying out of pocket is far less expensive than paying for insurance...especially Obamacare-compliant insurance. I can imagine how much better things would be if costs were brought down. But I see little to no attention being paid to that fundamental aspect of the entire mess. Everything is focused on only how to pay whatever the costs are.

 

[PsyOps]

Dems aren't worried because they want Single Payer anyway.

^THAT RIGHT THERE ^ Obamacare was purposely set up to fail. It has failed. THAT is the success of Obamacare. The problem is, they expected Americans to be too stupid to see what's going on. They expected Americans to just bend over for more. The expected Americans would become so desperate that they would keep democrats in power, knowing they would answer the cry to fix it. Then single payer - full government controlled healthcare - could be born. Sanders and his ilk are still screaming for it thinking Americans are still too stupid to know better.

But, given what the GOP is doing, there is still hope for the democrats. The GOP will fail their way out of power.

 

[SamSpade]

I've found that paying out of pocket is far less expensive than paying for insurance..

I think if it was just me - or if everyone in my family was totally healthy - I'd be fine with that too.
As it is, two members of my family need to see a doctor at least once a month and with it, prescriptions.
That alone I could not pay for out of pocket. The copays are enough for my budget and I could NEVER afford the prescriptions at all.
Even WITH insurance, some of them are outrageous and we HAVE skipped them from time to time.

And dental is killing me. I have delayed procedures for years because I don't have the money - and that's with two insurances, one of which is considered top notch.
If I had to pay out of pocket, I'd be toothless.

 

[Gilligan]

I think if it was just me - or if everyone in my family was totally healthy - I'd be fine with that too.
As it is, two members of my family need to see a doctor at least once a month and with it, prescriptions.
That alone I could not pay for out of pocket. .

I could never afford insurance with a deductible so low that I would ever meet it, except in the case of something catastrophic. So even paying thousands of dollars out of pocket is far, far cheaper than also, at the same time, paying premiums for useless insurance.

 

[vraiblonde]

The idea I trust is to abolish Obamacare and replace it with nothing. Where's Ron Paul when you need him?

The "health care crisis" in this country is largely a myth. There has always been a medical option for the poor - free clinics, Medicaid, etc. Emergency rooms have never been legally able to turn you away based on your ability to pay. I have never understood why people believe what politicians tell them, especially when it's demonstrably false and all you have to do is look around you for proof. We have the internet, why are we still so stupid?

The "problem" was largely manufactured, I'm guessing because the pols really want to go with completely socialized medicine so government can have complete control over our health care as well as everything else. Do we all remember the kid in DC who "died of a toothache" because his mother "couldn't afford" to take him to the doctor when it became abscessed and infected? Yeah, the back story is that she lived just a few blocks from a free clinic and was too cracked out or whatever to get medical care for her child. There are also a number of dentists in DC who provide free care for those with limited income. Deamonte Driver's mother did indeed have Medicaid...and she let it lapse because she didn't turn in a change of address form to continue her benefits. Yes, filling out a simple form was all she needed to do to continue her taxpayer funded health insurance.

What lazy Americans want is medical care that's right next door, that they don't have to pay for; even better if that medical care comes to you; maybe reads your mind so you don't have to make a phone call; and can you pick up a pizza on your way? Oh, and I'ma need you to pay for my birth control. And my boob job. And my sex change. And my 90 year old grandfather's heart transplant.

 

[Gilligan]

And my boob job.

No pics?

 

[PJay]

And my sex change.

 

[vraiblonde]

No pics?

That's a pay site.

 

[vraiblonde]

That's a pay site, too.

 

[Gilligan]

That's a pay site.

 

[PJay]

That's a pay site, too.

No thanks.

 

[Toxick]

Because I can't figure their angle UNLESS it's strictly political - that they want to protect an accomplishment of theirs regardless of the outcome.

I think the ACA was designed to fail deliberately.

Not because they want people to die - but because it would force the government's hand and lead the way towards a single payer system, which has been their real goal the whole time.
They totally believed that Hillary was going to win, and they figured while she was in office, when things with ACA got sketchy, she would guide us unwashed deplorable heathens to the Utopian Socialized Medicine that is our glorious destiny.


As far as Evil World Domination plans go, it's not a bad plan.

 

[hotbikermama40]

I think the ACA was designed to fail deliberately.

Not because they want people to die - but because it would force the government's hand and lead the way towards a single payer system, which has been their real goal the whole time.
They totally believed that Hillary was going to win, and they figured while she was in office, when things with ACA got sketchy, she would guide us unwashed deplorable heathens to the Utopian Socialized Medicine that is our glorious destiny.


As far as Evil World Domination plans go, it's not a bad plan.

Thank God we had the Trump card up our sleeve

 

[philibusters]

Because I can't figure their angle UNLESS it's strictly political - that they want to protect an accomplishment of theirs regardless of the outcome.

And we also have SO many liberal talking heads whose message seems to be - it's not bad, it's helped so many people, let's just fix it, people like it, it just needs a little fixing.

Aside from two elements - Medicaid expansion and the provisions for pre-existing conditions and coverage until 26 - EVERYONE hates what's left.
Higher premiums, ridiculous deductibles - I have several friends who say the premiums they pay serve no purpose, because they're still paying the deductible - and increasingly limited choices.

Why can't both sides say - ok. Let's come up with a better solution, and just kill the old one?

If Obamacare survives - who "wins"? The Republicans, who couldn't kill it, or the Democrats - who protected it and OWN it?

Because I am sure the REST of us - lose.

There are a lot of people who don't like Obamacare in principle who are going to be upset if its repealed. Basically Obamacare got more people insurance with the Medicaid Expansion and by giving tax credits to low income workers. As expensive as health care insurance has gotten, its still cheaper for most of the people receiving the tax credits than it was before hand.

Here is the thing, any of the Republican plans contemplated are going to result in a lot less people having health insurance. Some of them will of course be by choice, but for the low income, most often it would probably not be by choice.

 

[vraiblonde]

I think the ACA was designed to fail deliberately.

Not because they want people to die - but because it would force the government's hand and lead the way towards a single payer system, which has been their real goal the whole time.
They totally believed that Hillary was going to win, and they figured while she was in office, when things with ACA got sketchy, she would guide us unwashed deplorable heathens to the Utopian Socialized Medicine that is our glorious destiny.


As far as Evil World Domination plans go, it's not a bad plan.

Of course. Which explains why they're having such a #### fit over Trump. The GOP likes to pretend that they are for "traditional values" and "personal responsibility", but we can look at their actions and see that that's clearly not true.

 

[Monello]

I can't think of an idea I trust - at least, none that have been proposed.

France has a sort of socialized system, but what is regulated is insurance and pricing - and medical professionals are part of the process.
I am not sure in this country if standardized costs are going to work - nor do I think we can rely on them to be low.

England has about the worst of both worlds and has a de facto single payer. The problem I see there is creeping government overreach.
Eventually government bureaucrats make decisions that supersede your OWN. That's outrageous.

I always thought that what we ONCE had was ok - you paid the doctor like anyone else, and you bought catastrophic insurance as a hedge against costly medical care.
Kind of like how we buy life or auto insurance. You don't use insurance to pay for every repair - and you shouldn't. It's there for things like accidents - not maintenance.
Life insurance is only useful if you DIE - otherwise, you're just dumping money down a hole. It's a gamble.

But medical insurance - for some reason, somewhere along the line - is used for EVERYTHING, and I have to think that part of it is that medical costs of ANY kind are simply too high to pay out of pocket.
Ever look at your Explanation of Benefits, or whatever it is you get? The costs for some of those routine tests - or the costs of pharmaceuticals - if you paid cash, you'd be broke in a cold second.

It seems to me that whatever the solution - the primary idea is to BRING COSTS DOWN. THEN premiums don't have to be high. Then you can HAVE catastrophic only plans that make sense.
Then people can actually forego insurance premiums and pay out of pocket. We need innovations like finding ways for people to pool better. To allow medical staff to include nurse practitioners, who don't require outrageous salaries
but are fully able to handle most day to day visits. We need to make medical schools less expensive - I realize that becoming a doctor is a very difficult and rigorous path - but we're now importing doctors, because we
can't keep up with demand and medical school is still out of reach for many.

But - I haven't seen a government solution that is either satisfactory NOW or isn't likely to become REALLY bad in the near future.

This makes too much sense. Doctors should post fees like restaurant menus. Then people could shop around. Then Walmart gets in the medical care business. So scratch that idea.