Even If His Campaign Broke Laws, Trump Isn’t An Illegitimate President

[GURPS]

Democratic politicians and pundits are claiming that Donald Trump’s presidency is fundamentally illegitimate, and therefore so are his exercises of presidential power, such as his judicial nominations. This is mostly an attempt to derail the pending confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court.

However, some on the left even believe that if the president is removed from office and found guilty of crimes related to the election, then all of his actions in office will be delegitimized and undone as null and void. This is political Donatism, with all the allure and errors of that old heresy.

The idea of an “illegitimate” president is either a meaningless rhetorical flourish urging the election of a Congress that will more vigorously oppose the president, or it is an attempt to create a constitutional crisis. If applied, it would be a banana-republic tactic that would make governments unstable and governing untenable. It would be a farce, like the NCAA’s attempt to regulate college football amateurism by occasionally and capriciously voiding victories.

This sort of drastic measure might be justified in extremity, but the left is trying to argue that Trump’s exercise of the constitutional powers of the presidency is illegitimate because of possible involvement in campaign finance violations related to buying the silence of his mistresses. That would be bad, possibly criminal, but it would not be delegitimizing in an unprecedented way.

Even if he broke the law during his presidential campaign, Trump was still legitimately elected according to constitutional procedure. If Congress wants to impeach and convict him for this or anything else, it can. Until then, Trump will be the legitimate president of the United States. Even if he is removed, his lawful actions and appointments will retain their legitimacy, despite the new creed of political Donatism.

The original Donatists at least believed in their doctrine and its importance. They thought it crucial to the eternal happiness or misery of human persons. Today’s political Donatists are developing their dogmas out of pure political opportunism. They are either hacks, or fanatics willing to sacrifice the constitutional order in fit of pique over losing an election.


Even If His Campaign Broke Laws, Trump Isn’t An Illegitimate President

 

[This_person]

Democratic politicians and pundits are claiming that Donald Trump’s presidency is fundamentally illegitimate, and therefore so are his exercises of presidential power, such as his judicial nominations. This is mostly an attempt to derail the pending confirmation of Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court.

However, some on the left even believe that if the president is removed from office and found guilty of crimes related to the election, then all of his actions in office will be delegitimized and undone as null and void. This is political Donatism, with all the allure and errors of that old heresy.

The idea of an “illegitimate” president is either a meaningless rhetorical flourish urging the election of a Congress that will more vigorously oppose the president, or it is an attempt to create a constitutional crisis. If applied, it would be a banana-republic tactic that would make governments unstable and governing untenable. It would be a farce, like the NCAA’s attempt to regulate college football amateurism by occasionally and capriciously voiding victories.

This sort of drastic measure might be justified in extremity, but the left is trying to argue that Trump’s exercise of the constitutional powers of the presidency is illegitimate because of possible involvement in campaign finance violations related to buying the silence of his mistresses. That would be bad, possibly criminal, but it would not be delegitimizing in an unprecedented way.

Even if he broke the law during his presidential campaign, Trump was still legitimately elected according to constitutional procedure. If Congress wants to impeach and convict him for this or anything else, it can. Until then, Trump will be the legitimate president of the United States. Even if he is removed, his lawful actions and appointments will retain their legitimacy, despite the new creed of political Donatism.

The original Donatists at least believed in their doctrine and its importance. They thought it crucial to the eternal happiness or misery of human persons. Today’s political Donatists are developing their dogmas out of pure political opportunism. They are either hacks, or fanatics willing to sacrifice the constitutional order in fit of pique over losing an election.


Even If His Campaign Broke Laws, Trump Isn’t An Illegitimate President

The same arguments were made by the birthers on the right (as differentiated from the HRC campaign, who started the whole notion). The inaccuracies of the arguments were valid then, like now.

 

[Sapidus]

The same arguments were made by the birthers on the right (as differentiated from the HRC campaign, who started the whole notion). The inaccuracies of the arguments were valid then, like now.

Except the birther thing was an unfounded rumor that was disproven and is only believed by racist idiots


Why do you believe an perpetuate every idiotic right wing talking point when anyone with half a brain knows the truth? You just take Trump at his word for every dumb thing he says

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/hillary-clinton-started-birther-movement/

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/birther-movement-founder-trump-clinton-228304

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...hecking-donald-trumps-claim-hillary-clinton-/

 

[GURPS]

Except the birther thing was an unfounded rumor that was disproven and is only believed by racist idiots

yeah Started By Hillary Sore Losers ... PUMA

Why do you believe an perpetuate every idiotic right wing talking point when anyone with half a brain knows the truth?

ah yes the Elitist Dismissive Attitude .... yeah you are the Smartest Mother ####er on the Internet

 

[This_person]

Except the birther thing was an unfounded rumor that was disproven and is only believed by racist idiots

All I know is that it was started by the Clinton campaign. I've repeatedly said I think Obama was born in HI, though I am convinced his BC was forged for some other reason.

It was never disproven, it was denied. The denials, and the BC provided, were argued to be forgeries by some pretty convincing, unbiased people. That does NOT mean that Obama was born in Kenya, it means his BC was a forgery.

But, it's funny that you choose to attack me for something I've already said I don't believe (many times), and when I am saying birthers used the same argument against your messiah, and were wrong just like the ones on the left trying to use the "illegitimate" argument against Trump. In other words, I was saying Obama was the legit president (regardless of where he was born) because the Electoral College said so, and finding out that he somehow cheated in the election (which matters exactly 0% in anything other than political climate, since the popular election is meaningless constitutionally - only the electoral college election matters) would not stop Trump from being president any more than Obama having been born in Kenya (which I've said I do not believe).

 

[MiddleGround]

ah yes the Elitist Dismissive Attitude .... yeah you are the Smartest Mother ####er on the Internet

Ima steal this to use when board mommy posts another "it's not my BSing problem, it's YOUR comprehension problem" response.

 

[Sapidus]

All I know is that it was started by the Clinton campaign. I've repeatedly said I think Obama was born in HI, though I am convinced his BC was forged for some other reason.

It was never disproven, it was denied. The denials, and the BC provided, were argued to be forgeries by some pretty convincing, unbiased people. That does NOT mean that Obama was born in Kenya, it means his BC was a forgery.

But, it's funny that you choose to attack me for something I've already said I don't believe (many times), and when I am saying birthers used the same argument against your messiah, and were wrong just like the ones on the left trying to use the "illegitimate" argument against Trump. In other words, I was saying Obama was the legit president (regardless of where he was born) because the Electoral College said so, and finding out that he somehow cheated in the election (which matters exactly 0% in anything other than political climate, since the popular election is meaningless constitutionally - only the electoral college election matters) would not stop Trump from being president any more than Obama having been born in Kenya (which I've said I do not believe).

Well if you read the three links i provided you could educate yourself and realize Trump and Hannity and Faux lie to you and that it didnt start with Hillary.


So it's ok to believe his with certificate was forged with absolutely no proof but a feeling but the whole Russia thing is just too far fetched?


Really shaking my head at the level of education provided in public schools in this country that would allow you to believe that dichotomy.

 

[This_person]

Well if you read the three links i provided you could educate yourself and realize Trump and Hannity and Faux lie to you and that it didnt start with Hillary.

I used context clues, my brain, and court records (look up Philip Berg or Anthony Robert Martin-Trigona - better known as Andy Martin).

So it's ok to believe his with certificate was forged with absolutely no proof but a feeling but the whole Russia thing is just too far fetched?

No, that's not even close to what I said. I said that documents experts, unbiased in the conclusion, said the BC is not legitimate. "The whole Russia thing" has not been shown to be accurate by a single thing.

Again, I'll ask you, is English your first language?

Really shaking my head at the level of education provided in public schools in this country that would allow you to believe that dichotomy.

Well, the obvious conclusion from that is, since you believe "the whole Russia thing", then if you do not have dichotomous logic in your head you believe the equal possibility of Obama not being born in HI. Right? Or, do you just throw #### out there without realizing what you are saying?

 

[Sapidus]

I used context clues, my brain, and court records (look up Philip Berg or Anthony Robert Martin-Trigona - better known as Andy Martin).

You mean you believe crackpot conspiracy theories? Gotcha. You think you are the only one who knows how to read sketchy websites? Why do you cling to this idiocy like you do with Seth rich and Pizzagate? None of this hold up to any logical use of context clues or court records. Yes perhaps they hold up in your brain but thats not saying much apparently.


No, that's not even close to what I said. I said that documents experts, unbiased in the conclusion, said the BC is not legitimate. "The whole Russia thing" has not been shown to be accurate by a single thing. BS. One conspiracy theorist document expert does not proof make. If it wasn't legitimate he wouldn't be president. The amount of hate the right threw at him if there was any way to prove what you are saying he would have been impeached. Luckily it was just tin foil hat mouth breathers who believed it and they were dismissed but Trump effectively used it to sew doubt in your tiny minds about the legitimacy of the government as a whole.

Again. Our public education system is really to blame for your naivety

Again, I'll ask you, is English your first language



Well, the obvious conclusion from that is, since you believe "the whole Russia thing", then if you do not have dichotomous logic in your head you believe the equal possibility of Obama not being born in HI. Right? Or, do you just throw #### out there without realizing what you are saying?

One is a conspiracy theorist meant to delegitimize a president with no proof.

The other is an investigation which has sent 3 people to jail and at least 20 indictments.

I know which one i am going to bet on as having merit

 

[GURPS]

Well if you read the three links i provided you could educate yourself and realize Trump and Hannity and Faux lie to you and that it didn't start with Hillary.

if you were only as smart as me .......

Really shaking my head at the level of education provided in public schools in this country that would allow you to believe that dichotomy.

I am better educated than you .........


....... the whole Birther Thing started with Hillary Supporters


I see what is going on here ...... splitting hairs again - Hillary Campaign / Hillary Supporters .......


https://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/birther-movement-founder-trump-clinton-228304

Much of the insinuation that Clinton had a hand in birtherism traces to the role of her then-senior strategist Mark Penn, who issued a memo in 2007 suggesting that Clinton emphasize Obama’s upbringing in Hawaii and Indonesia and paint him as fundamentally un-American. The memo never questioned Obama’s citizenship but did suggest highlighting his “lack of American roots.”

Later, in the spring 2008, as Clinton’s chances of winning the Democratic primary grew thin, some of her hardcore supporters circulated rumors that Obama may not be a U.S. citizen, picking up on some of Martin’s innuendo and extending it further.

“Barack Obama’s mother was living in Kenya with his Arab-African father late in her pregnancy. She was not allowed to travel by plane then, so Barack Obama was born there and his mother then took him to Hawaii to register his birth,” read one of those emails posted, at the time, by Snopes.com, a site that attempts to debunk internet rumors.

Birtherism reportedly began with innuendo by serial Illinois political candidate Andy Martin, who painted Obama as a closet Muslim in 2004. | AP Photo

On Friday, Clinton’s former senior aide Patti Solis Doyle acknowledged that a volunteer coordinator in Iowa forwarded a birther-related email. “Hillary made the decision immediately let that person go,” she said. “We let that person go. It was so beyond the pale of the campaign Hillary wanted to run and that we as a staff wanted to run that I called David Plouffe who was managing Barack Obama to apologize to say this is not coming from us, that this was rogue volunteer.”


2 Clinton supporters in ’08 reportedly shared Obama ‘birther’ story

One was a volunteer in Iowa, who was fired, Clinton’s former campaign manager said Friday. The other was Clinton confidant Sidney Blumenthal, according to a former McClatchy Washington Bureau chief.


The Democratic Roots of the Birther Movement



Fact checking the media -- yes, the Clinton machine did start the birther movement


“The idea of going after Obama’s otherness dates back to the last presidential election — and to Democrats,” Bloomberg News reported. “Long before Trump started in, Hillary Clinton’s chief strategist, Mark Penn, recognized this potential vulnerability in Obama and sought to exploit it.

“In a March 2007 memo to Clinton (that later found its way to me), Penn wrote: ‘All of these articles about his boyhood in Indonesia and his life in Hawaii are geared toward showing his background is diverse, multicultural and putting it in a new light,’ he wrote. ‘Save it for 2050. It also exposes a very strong weakness for him — his roots to basic American values and culture are at best limited. I cannot imagine America electing a president during a time of war who is not at his center fundamentally American in his thinking and his values,’ ” Bloomberg reported.

Although Mr. Penn never suggested bringing up Mr. Obama’s birth certificate as a strategy to exploit this weakness, he did suggest Mrs. Clinton include a line in every speech saying that she was “born in the middle of America to the middle class in the middle of the last century.”

 

[GURPS]

The other is an investigation which has sent 3 people to jail and at least 20 indictments.

yes an investigation in to COLLUSION - fostered by a fake dossier

 

[Sapidus]

yes an investigation in to COLLUSION - fostered by a fake dossier

Still trying to sell that lie?

You don't even believe it at the point it has been disproven so often

 

[This_person]

You mean you believe crackpot conspiracy theories? Gotcha. You think you are the only one who knows how to read sketchy websites? Why do you cling to this idiocy like you do with Seth rich and Pizzagate? None of this hold up to any logical use of context clues or court records. Yes perhaps they hold up in your brain but thats not saying much apparently.

I'm sorry for your lack of comprehension, let me try again. Philip Berg, attorney for Clinton, filed the first court challenge to Mr. Obama's birthplace. That's not a crackpot theory or idiocy. It is just fact.

One is a conspiracy theorist meant to delegitimize a president with no proof.

The other is an investigation which has sent 3 people to jail and at least 20 indictments.

I know which one i am going to bet on as having merit

What about "the whole Russia thing" were those three sent to jail over? Who has been convicted - or even tried - on any of those indictments?

 

[Hijinx]

I don't know where Obama was born, but I have a feeling it was an anal birth.
As for his birth certificate it's a fake.

 

[Sapidus]

I'm sorry for your lack of comprehension, let me try again. Philip Berg, attorney for Clinton, filed the first court challenge to Mr. Obama's birthplace. That's not a crackpot theory or idiocy. It is just fact.



What about "the whole Russia thing" were those three sent to jail over? Who has been convicted - or even tried - on any of those indictments?

So what? Did he do it at Clintons Behest? Did it go anywhere?

Want to talk about all the frivolous lawsuits filed everyday in this country?

By that same logic every action Trumps lawyer, Cohen did in the last ten years would also reflect on Trump no? So Trump should be in handcuffs too?

Try to apply your insane logic across the board or just stop

 

[GURPS]

Still trying to sell that lie?

You don't even believe it at the point it has been disproven so often

you have yet to prove it true .......

paid for by Hillary, information from Russians .,... leaked to the press to legitimize the paper, then the FBI used the story they created to get FISA Warrants

 

[Sapidus]

you have yet to prove it true .......

paid for by Hillary, information from Russians .,... leaked to the press to legitimize the paper, then the FBI used the story they created to get FISA Warrants

Seriously all lies backed by Trump and co and you idiots keep swallowing it

read a real news source

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-...ut-carter-page-dossier-secret-warrant-n893666

 

[h3mech]

democratic politicians and pundits are claiming that donald trump’s presidency is fundamentally illegitimate, and therefore so are his exercises of presidential power, such as his judicial nominations. This is mostly an attempt to derail the pending confirmation of brett kavanaugh to the supreme court.

However, some on the left even believe that if the president is removed from office and found guilty of crimes related to the election, then all of his actions in office will be delegitimized and undone as null and void. This is political donatism, with all the allure and errors of that old heresy.

The idea of an “illegitimate” president is either a meaningless rhetorical flourish urging the election of a congress that will more vigorously oppose the president, or it is an attempt to create a constitutional crisis. If applied, it would be a banana-republic tactic that would make governments unstable and governing untenable. It would be a farce, like the ncaa’s attempt to regulate college football amateurism by occasionally and capriciously voiding victories.

This sort of drastic measure might be justified in extremity, but the left is trying to argue that trump’s exercise of the constitutional powers of the presidency is illegitimate because of possible involvement in campaign finance violations related to buying the silence of his mistresses. That would be bad, possibly criminal, but it would not be delegitimizing in an unprecedented way.

Even if he broke the law during his presidential campaign, trump was still legitimately elected according to constitutional procedure. If congress wants to impeach and convict him for this or anything else, it can. Until then, trump will be the legitimate president of the united states. Even if he is removed, his lawful actions and appointments will retain their legitimacy, despite the new creed of political donatism.

The original donatists at least believed in their doctrine and its importance. They thought it crucial to the eternal happiness or misery of human persons. Today’s political donatists are developing their dogmas out of pure political opportunism. They are either hacks, or fanatics willing to sacrifice the constitutional order in fit of pique over losing an election.


even if his campaign broke laws, trump isn’t an illegitimate president

don't care, he is doing what i voted for.

 

[This_person]

So what?

So, you said it was a right-wing thing, and it was not.

Did he do it at Clintons Behest?

Clearly.

Did it go anywhere?

No, there was no "standing". This proves that not a single person can challenge the constitutionality of a candidate, because all the candidate has to do is lie on the state forms asking to be put on the ballot (for those few states that require them to do so, and don't just take the primaries as reason to put a "major party" [Read: only Dems and Republicans] on a ballot). No state verifies, and no citizen can challenge.

I have repeatedly said that the whole thing Clinton's campaign brought to light is this problem. The problem needs fixed.

Want to talk about all the frivolous lawsuits filed everyday in this country?

Nope.

By that same logic every action Trumps lawyer, Cohen did in the last ten years would also reflect on Trump no? So Trump should be in handcuffs too?

Try to apply your insane logic across the board or just stop

No, that logic does not apply. That's why I don't see Cohen's actions violating campaign finance law as a problem for Trump - those are Cohen's issues.

But, I would never imply that the left is stupid because of Trump, like you stated the right is to blame for Clinton, which was the question at hand.

 

[This_person]

you have yet to prove it true .......

paid for by Hillary, information from Russians .,... leaked to the press to legitimize the paper, then the FBI used the story they created to get FISA Warrants

AFTER showing the dossier was verified - by the people who used the dossier to put the information in the newspaper and then claimed the newspaper corroborated the dossier

Now, we are finding out that was more common than just against Trump.