Pope Francis enacting change in The Lord's Prayer.

[Hijinx]

This probably should be in the religion section, but I post it here because it affects so many people.

The Vatican — under the direction of Pope Francis — will soon change the verbiage in the Lord’s Prayer to clarify God does not, in fact, tempt people.

The pope has taken issue with the phrase, “Lead us not into temptation,” one stanza of the Lord’s Prayer found in Matthew 6:9-13.

People have been saying the Lord's Prayer the same way for a long time and this fellow wants to change it.
The Lord's Prayer does not belong to Catholics, it belongs to Christians of every sort
What gives a Catholic Pope the right and the audacity to change it.

Francis says the Lord does not tempt people. What the hell did he do with Adam and Eve when he tempted them with the apple.
One of the first tempts in the Bible. Didn't he tempt Lots wife to turn around and be turned into salt?

Not being a theologian I cannot argue with the Pope, but I will continue the Lord's prayer the way I say it now every day.

 

[Midnightrider]

This probably should be in the religion section, but I post it here because it affects so many people.



People have been saying the Lord's Prayer the same way for a long time and this fellow wants to change it.
The Lord's Prayer does not belong to Catholics, it belongs to Christians of every sort
What gives a Catholic Pope the right and the audacity to change it.

Francis says the Lord does not tempt people. What the hell did he do with Adam and Eve when he tempted them with the apple.
One of the first tempts in the Bible. Didn't he tempt Lots wife to turn around and be turned into salt?

Not being a theologian I cannot argue with the Pope, but I will continue the Lord's prayer the way I say it now every day.

The serpent represented the devil in that story.....

And if you believe in that sort of stuff, the pope has his ear to god. They routinely change catholic prayers and doctrine.

 

[Hijinx]

The serpent represented the devil in that story.....

And if you believe in that sort of stuff, the pope has his ear to god. They routinely change catholic prayers and doctrine.

Very True. But it was God who told Adam not to eat the fruit from that tree.
God is the one doing the tempting, the devil did the taunting.
Adam ate the fruit.

Plus although I am Catholic i have studied a bit about the Papacy, and Francis is not the first Pope who was wrong.
Ear or no ear. By the way I do not believe for one minute that God or Christ speaks or spoke to any Pope other than Peter.

 

[littlelady]

This probably should be in the religion section, but I post it here because it affects so many people.



People have been saying the Lord's Prayer the same way for a long time and this fellow wants to change it.
The Lord's Prayer does not belong to Catholics, it belongs to Christians of every sort
What gives a Catholic Pope the right and the audacity to change it.

Francis says the Lord does not tempt people. What the hell did he do with Adam and Eve when he tempted them with the apple.
One of the first tempts in the Bible. Didn't he tempt Lots wife to turn around and be turned into salt?

Not being a theologian I cannot argue with the Pope, but I will continue the Lord's prayer the way I say it now every day.

It is because the current Pope is a socialist communist. In other ‘words’, he thinks he can change anything he wants to. He is not about religion, but is about power. My dot’s inlaws are extremely devout Catholics, and, are struggling with the statements of this Pope. They are 78 years old, and say their support/belief in Popes never waivered, until now. I guess this Pope thinks he is greater than God and the Bible. Wow.

I hope seekeroftruth posts in this thread. I am interested in her opinion on this.

 

[SamSpade]

Very True. But it was God who told Adam not to eat the fruit from that tree.
God is the one doing the tempting, the devil did the taunting.
Adam ate the fruit.

TEMPTING is not telling someone they can't do something.
It's urging them to do something they've already been told not to.

James 1:13-14
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

You're not "tempting" your children when you tell them not to run into the street or put their hand on the stove.

I know where you're coming from - Paul addresses this in Romans extensively but to the point
Romans 7:7

[FONT=&amp]7[/FONT]What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.
For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

The law - or any kind of rule that forbids behavior - isn't temptation - it just shows you where you are.
It doesn't tempt you any more than the scale makes you overeat.

What the Bible DOES say about temptation - a few times - is that God will allow it to occur, just as you may allow
your children to be tempted - by their own desires. Leaving cookies out for Santa or leaving cash on the counter
isn't tempting so much as demonstrating faith and trust. If we didn't do this with our kids, we'd lock up everything
as though they were the dog trying to steal the food.

Even more - he knows you, and won't allow it to be more than you can take.

1 Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful;
he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,
he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

 

[littlelady]

TEMPTING is not telling someone they can't do something.
It's urging them to do something they've already been told not to.

James 1:13-14
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

You're not "tempting" your children when you tell them not to run into the street or put their hand on the stove.

I know where you're coming from - Paul addresses this in Romans extensively but to the point
Romans 7:7

[FONT=&amp]7[/FONT]What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless, I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.
For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "You shall not covet."

The law - or any kind of rule that forbids behavior - isn't temptation - it just shows you where you are.
It doesn't tempt you any more than the scale makes you overeat.

What the Bible DOES say about temptation - a few times - is that God will allow it to occur, just as you may allow
your children to be tempted - by their own desires. Leaving cookies out for Santa or leaving cash on the counter
isn't tempting so much as demonstrating faith and trust. If we didn't do this with our kids, we'd lock up everything
as though they were the dog trying to steal the food.

Even more - he knows you, and won't allow it to be more than you can take.

1 Cor 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful;
he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted,
he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

I am trying to understand your post. I will think about it tomorrow. Oh wait, it is tomorrow.

 

[BOP]

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

The pope needs to get on that verse, stat. Oh, wait, mortal men have already done that.

 

[SamSpade]

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

The pope needs to get on that verse, stat. Oh, wait, mortal men have already done that.

If you're trying to say that God is the author of evil, this is a problem of King James English and nothing else.
In 1610, "evil" is also used to describe a bad thing, like death or destruction.
Even Tolkien has Gandalf saying not all tears are an evil - meaning something bad.

Most other translations render the word as "calamity" or "disaster".

 

[This_person]

This probably should be in the religion section, but I post it here because it affects so many people.



People have been saying the Lord's Prayer the same way for a long time and this fellow wants to change it.
The Lord's Prayer does not belong to Catholics, it belongs to Christians of every sort
What gives a Catholic Pope the right and the audacity to change it.

Francis says the Lord does not tempt people. What the hell did he do with Adam and Eve when he tempted them with the apple.
One of the first tempts in the Bible. Didn't he tempt Lots wife to turn around and be turned into salt?

Not being a theologian I cannot argue with the Pope, but I will continue the Lord's prayer the way I say it now every day.

The pope is rewriting the bible? This isn't a Catholic prayer, it's a Bible verse.

The Greek word for "temptation" could also be "testing". The concept remains regardless of translation, though.

 

[This_person]

If you're trying to say that God is the author of evil, this is a problem of King James English and nothing else.
In 1610, "evil" is also used to describe a bad thing, like death or destruction.
Even Tolkien has Gandalf saying not all tears are an evil - meaning something bad.

Most other translations render the word as "calamity" or "disaster".

God is the author of all evil, as well as all good. As the Creator, He created it all. He created heaven, and hell.

How do you know what "good" is? You know because it is the balanced opposite of "evil". If there were no "evil", there would be no "good". When people ask, "why does God allow evil in the world?", in my view the best answer is "so we know His goodness." That needs to be explained, because the question is a bumper sticker level of understanding, but the answer is not. We experience good and bad/evil throughout our lives, and understand just how good something is knowing how bad things are. In the end, the maximum good (heaven) is balanced by the maximum bad (hell). We have the choice of glorifying God, or not; the end result being the maximum reward or its opposite. The challenge for the human is that glorifying God for the main purpose of receiving heaven is selfish, not actually glorifying God. This is why we are reminded He knows all that is in our hearts. It is my believe that God's goal for us is to be "good" because that's what we know is right, glorifying God; and not for any selfish reason. THAT will allow for the transition.

 

[Midnightrider]

Very True. But it was God who told Adam not to eat the fruit from that tree.
God is the one doing the tempting, the devil did the taunting.
Adam ate the fruit.

Plus although I am Catholic i have studied a bit about the Papacy, and Francis is not the first Pope who was wrong.
Ear or no ear. By the way I do not believe for one minute that God or Christ speaks or spoke to any Pope other than Peter.

That’s funny. What changed? When did god stop talking to people?

 

[SamSpade]

God is the author of all evil, as well as all good. As the Creator, He created it all. He created heaven, and hell.

How do you know what "good" is? You know because it is the balanced opposite of "evil". If there were no "evil", there would be no "good".

I get your point, but I don't necessarily agree with it. I don't create darkness by lighting a candle. I reveal it.
I understand evil as opposition to God, at least, in the sense of "sin". That precludes God from creating it, because he can't go against himself.

God IS the author of evil if you're using it in the sense of hurricanes, disease and death.
I was saying earlier that some of this is the use of the word used in the Bible as "evil" when the best
general rendering would be "bad". Harmful animals are called "evil". A sore on the body is called "evil".
We have lots of words in ENGLISH which if translated to another language would confuse the hell out of people.
How does an athlete run a race, people run on a bank, a river run, a kid run with a wild crowd, sing a run up
the scales. In another language, using the same word THEY have for running a race wouldn't work.

So yes - God created death. Poop. Rainy days and Mondays. Rutabagas. The pit in the avocado.
(That's a movie reference). Stuff we don't like. God did not create sin. He can't.

I would be glad to discuss this further in the religion section, but I really don't have the patience to discuss
it with some persons who just want to argue and nitpick. I don't think you are, but others here will.

 

[This_person]

I get your point, but I don't necessarily agree with it. I don't create darkness by lighting a candle. I reveal it.
I understand evil as opposition to God, at least, in the sense of "sin". That precludes God from creating it, because he can't go against himself.

God IS the author of evil if you're using it in the sense of hurricanes, disease and death.
I was saying earlier that some of this is the use of the word used in the Bible as "evil" when the best
general rendering would be "bad". Harmful animals are called "evil". A sore on the body is called "evil".
We have lots of words in ENGLISH which if translated to another language would confuse the hell out of people.
How does an athlete run a race, people run on a bank, a river run, a kid run with a wild crowd, sing a run up
the scales. In another language, using the same word THEY have for running a race wouldn't work.

So yes - God created death. Poop. Rainy days and Mondays. Rutabagas. The pit in the avocado.
(That's a movie reference). Stuff we don't like. God did not create sin. He can't.

I would be glad to discuss this further in the religion section, but I really don't have the patience to discuss
it with some persons who just want to argue and nitpick. I don't think you are, but others here will.

It's true I'm not trying to nitpick. I definitely get what you're saying. It's hard for me to conceive of something that clearly exists that God did not create, though. If only by creating a human with free will, then defining what is "sin", God created sin while man chooses to partake.

It may be semantics, or it may be a difference of opinion (I'm not sure). But, the big flick for me is "in the beginning..." there was nothing. God created it all. That includes the serpent/devil/evil. I do not consider a hurricane "evil", but the results can be devastating. But, a hurricane just exists without motivation, thus I agree it is not evil. I think what you're saying is the word "evil" can be a translation issue, and the "bad" that comes from a hurricane is translated as "evil" (and the whole conglomeration of things that goes with that in terms of Bible verses). I get that, and definitely agree. Much like "murder" and "kill" in the popular reductions of the 10 commandments - big difference in actual meaning of the original to the colloquial understanding. Maybe that's all we're saying, and if that's true, we'd be saying the same thing.

 

[Hijinx]

That’s funny. What changed? When did god stop talking to people?

My man you love to turn posts to many pages and you love to argue.
I am not in this to argue i only posted what the article is saying is coming from the Pope and Vatican.
I have stated that i am no theologian and I know you are not, neither of us is qualified to argue the specifics.
My only part in this is to say that the Pope can try this if he wants, but I will continue to use the prayer as it has always been used.
So, just go away with your BS. If you have an opinion state it. My part in this is discussion of the verdict coming down.

 

[stgislander]

During different times of the liturgical year, we will say a contemporary version which replaces 'lead us not into temptation" with "save us from the time of trial".

 

[Midnightrider]

My man you love to turn posts to many pages and you love to argue.
I am not in this to argue i only posted what the article is saying is coming from the Pope and Vatican.
I have stated that i am no theologian and I know you are not, neither of us is qualified to argue the specifics.
My only part in this is to say that the Pope can try this if he wants, but I will continue to use the prayer as it has always been used.
So, just go away with your BS. If you have an opinion state it. My part in this is discussion of the verdict coming down.

And why would you want to seek the truth.

 

[nobody really]

being raised catholic and having attended catholic school, my parents invested a lot of time and money. I admit i'm a dysfunctional catholic.

that said, all the mistakes i made in life, i always ask forgiveness, and will continue to say the Lord's Prayer as it was taught. Lead me not into temptation, but God gave us free will to make a choice. I hope my choices from here until i meet Him are good ones.

When the phuck did these forums get so serious.

 

[MiddleGround]

When the phuck did these forums get so serious.

2 reasons. The topic AND those involved.

The topic is not about or related to politics (at least, it has not been equated in any way... yet )

Also, this is how a good discussion thread should be. It is a refreshing deaprture from the daily 'conversations' that happen here. I hope it continues. It depends on the content and contributors.

 

[nobody really]

2 reasons. The topic AND those involved.

The topic is not about or related to politics (at least, it has not been equated in any way... yet )

Also, this is how a good discussion thread should be. It is a refreshing deaprture from the daily 'conversations' that happen here. I hope it continues. It depends on the content and contributors.

agree

 

[Hijinx]

2 reasons. The topic AND those involved.

The topic is not about or related to politics (at least, it has not been equated in any way... yet )

Also, this is how a good discussion thread should be. It is a refreshing deaprture from the daily 'conversations' that happen here. I hope it continues. It depends on the content and contributors.

There are so many thing the Pope should change IMO.
Divorce and Catholics who have divorced being allowed to take Communion.
Birth Control.
Confession or reconciliation.
These are things most Catholics decide for themselves anyway. Church law or no Church law.

Also clean out the perverts in the priesthood and the Vatican. Stop trying to foll catholics into thinking something will be done about it.
Allow Priests to marry.

So many thing that need doing IMO, and he is screwing around with the oldest prayer we know.