Now Pelosi Owns the Shutdown

[GURPS]

On Saturday, Donald Trump shrewdly flipped the table on Nancy Pelosi in the government shutdown standoff. He has now proposed a grand bargain on immigration: legalization of some 1 million so-called Dreamers -- the foreigners who were brought into the U.S. illegally by their parents -- and an immediate end to the shutdown, if she agrees to expand funding to $5.7 billion for the wall.

It's the kind of checkmate political maneuver that may guarantee his re-election.

It's smart because it now puts the onus on Pelosi to open the government. It also puts the pressure on Pelosi to act on immigration reform. For 25 years, Democrats have preferred to politicize the immigration issue -- and treat Hispanic voters as political hostages -- rather agree to a bipartisan solution to deal with the 10 million illegal immigrants residing in the U.S.


Now Pelosi Owns the Shutdown

 

[This_person]

For 25 years, Democrats have preferred to politicize the immigration issue -- and treat Hispanic voters as political hostages -- rather agree to a bipartisan solution to deal with the 10 million illegal immigrants residing in the U.S.

THIS is the key to this whole issue. It hasn't been just Democrats who preferred to politicize the issue. No one has done anything of value, even after Reagan was lied into his amnesty.

Thjs is NOT an emergency, and if Trump treats it like one he's being dishonest.

I am NOT saying it is not a HUGE problem, costing us over $100B annually, costing us thousands of citizens' lives annually, costing an immense amount of public safety, etc., etc., etc. I am saying that the open southern border and treating illegal aliens as super-citizens has become public policy, not an emergency. The root of "emergency" is "emerge", and this is not an emerging issue. This has been federal public policy for decades.

No one even tries to fix it. Fixing it would involve using e-Verify as a requirement and not a nice thing to have. Fixing it would require ensuring there are no entitlements granted to illegal aliens. Fixing it would require that we treat the border as, well, you know, a BORDER and not "some imaginary line drawn on a map."

Neither R nor D has any desire to fix it. Having them here is bipartisan-supported federal public policy. The arguments are for votes, the actions (and inactions) show otherwise.

Trump is offering a reasonable and sound negotiating point. The only reason to disagree is if you really want nothing done for "dreamers", or, more accurately, illegal aliens brought here underage (allegedly).

This is why our government is shutdown (in small part) - because an outsider wants to actually fix the problem that no one on either side of the aisle wants fixed.

 

[transporter]

Trump has not, viewed thru any lens, proposed a "grand bargain". He proposed a tit for tat and an exceedingly weak and ineffectual one. He's not serious so no one is taking him seriously.

Pelosi doesn't "own" the shutdown. That's just delusional...but to be expected from comrade GURPS.

This issue most certainly won't guarantee Trump's re-election.

If it was a checkmate solution, the Dems would have conceded...that is the basic definition of checkmate.

Trump is not "an outsider who wants to fix the problem". To fix the problem, you actually need a solution and a plan to implement that solution. Trump doesn't have either. He consistently contradicts himself on what he wants. He consistently lies about the facts.

This_person is correct in that, at this point, this is about votes. Pelosi has the stronger political position. Trump has the weaker and weakening position.

 

[GURPS]

Fixing it would involve using e-Verify as a requirement and not a nice thing to have.

E-Verify IS a Requirement

 

[SamSpade]

If it was a checkmate solution, the Dems would have conceded...that is the basic definition of checkmate.

Don't play much chess, do you?

Checkmate is when the game is over.
A checkmate solution is when checkmate is inevitable in so many moves.
I always hate it when I see a chess game on TV, and somehow the loser is *surprised* by the final move.
A decent player should be able to see it several moves ahead.

An intelligent opponent concedes that he has lost at that point.
An idiot tries to play it out ANYWAY.

The writer is saying that at this point, Nancy has lost. But like an idiot, she's choosing to play it out.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Trump is offering a reasonable and sound negotiating point. The only reason to disagree is if you really want nothing done for "dreamers", or, more accurately, illegal aliens brought here underage (allegedly).

This is why our government is shutdown (in small part) - because an outsider wants to actually fix the problem that no one on either side of the aisle wants fixed.

Trump is offering to kick the can down the road. Contrary to the OP, they would not be "legalized", they'd be granted 3 more years. If the left feels strongly that 3 years is a #### deal, they certainly aren't going to say "Boy, what a great deal. We don't even need to haggle!".

This is not why our govt is shut down. It's shut down because Trump wants almost $6 billion for something he thinks would fix the problem. You yourself have admitted that a 230 mile wall won't fix the problem.

 

[SamSpade]

Trump is offering to kick the can down the road. Contrary to the OP, they would not be "legalized", they'd be granted 3 more years. If the left feels strongly that 3 years is a #### deal, they certainly aren't going to say "Boy, what a great deal. We don't even need to haggle!".

This is not why our govt is shut down. It's shut down because Trump wants almost $6 billion for something he thinks would fix the problem. You yourself have admitted that a 230 mile wall won't fix the problem.

But this is the most irritating thing about the Democrats - this SHOULD be the base line for haggling. THAT is how it should work.
They don't want that. Can you imagine trying to haggle with someone when their response is - nothing, until you give me a better offer?
And uh - this is the minimum I'll take. A *deal* is, you give a little, I give a little. This whiny sit on your ass and dismiss it sounds more
like a tantrum than what Trump is doing.

The ball is in their court. That's why she owns it now. If she won't play ball, eventually the public will see HER as obstructionist.

 

[This_person]

E-Verify IS a Requirement

Not according to the government. :shrug:

 

[This_person]

Trump is not "an outsider who wants to fix the problem". To fix the problem, you actually need a solution and a plan to implement that solution. Trump doesn't have either.

Trump does not have the authority - regardless of what Obama did - to fix the problem. He offered up three years of continuing Obama's unconstitutional mess of a "solution" if Congress would just fund what they demanded the Executive Branch do under the Secure Fence Act of 2006, and provide a plethora of other fixes (like the judges, like the $1.6B for port-of-entry technologies, etc.).

This_person is correct in that, at this point, this is about votes. Pelosi has the stronger political position. Trump has the weaker and weakening position.

But, Pelosi has zero credibility and zero negotiating skills and zero solutions to the problems Trump has rightfully pointed out.

 

[This_person]

Trump is offering to kick the can down the road. Contrary to the OP, they would not be "legalized", they'd be granted 3 more years. If the left feels strongly that 3 years is a #### deal, they certainly aren't going to say "Boy, what a great deal. We don't even need to haggle!".

This is not why our govt is shut down. It's shut down because Trump wants almost $6 billion for something he thinks would fix the problem. You yourself have admitted that a 230 mile wall won't fix the problem.

It's not the final solution (neither part of your post). They're both pathways and actions towards a larger plan for majority solution.

As has been pointed out, crossing the southern border is only the majority of the problem, but visa overstays also have to be taken into account. There are many facets, this is just one of those many.

But, getting people out right now is like throwing a towel down on the floor when your water pipe is broken. First, turn off the water; THEN clean the water up. This is part of turning off the water.

 

[CPUSA]

Trump has not, viewed thru any lens, proposed a "grand bargain". He proposed a tit for tat and an exceedingly weak and ineffectual one. He's not serious so no one is taking him seriously.

Pelosi doesn't "own" the shutdown. That's just delusional...but to be expected from comrade GURPS.

This issue most certainly won't guarantee Trump's re-election.

If it was a checkmate solution, the Dems would have conceded...that is the basic definition of checkmate.

Trump is not "an outsider who wants to fix the problem". To fix the problem, you actually need a solution and a plan to implement that solution. Trump doesn't have either. He consistently contradicts himself on what he wants. He consistently lies about the facts.

This_person is correct in that, at this point, this is about votes. Pelosi has the stronger political position. Trump has the weaker and weakening position.

...

Nothing resembling value from you, as always...

Isn't it well past time for you to go towards the light?

 

[Chris0nllyn]

But this is the most irritating thing about the Democrats - this SHOULD be the base line for haggling. THAT is how it should work.
They don't want that. Can you imagine trying to haggle with someone when their response is - nothing, until you give me a better offer?
And uh - this is the minimum I'll take. A *deal* is, you give a little, I give a little. This whiny sit on your ass and dismiss it sounds more
like a tantrum than what Trump is doing.

The ball is in their court. That's why she owns it now. If she won't play ball, eventually the public will see HER as obstructionist.

I'm not sure why it's surprising that govt. is bad at making deals. It's clear deal making is the antithesis of today's government. I'm not about to say that one side not making a deal is better than the other side not making a deal.

Neither side is in good faith, so we'll sit here and watch 800,000 people bitch and moan about their jobs while some of us think "Boy, all these people out of work and nothing's really changed".

But, Pelosi has zero credibility and zero negotiating skills and zero solutions to the problems Trump has rightfully pointed out.

That assumes she wants one.

It's not the final solution (neither part of your post). They're both pathways and actions towards a larger plan for majority solution.

As has been pointed out, crossing the southern border is only the majority of the problem, but visa overstays also have to be taken into account. There are many facets, this is just one of those many.

But, getting people out right now is like throwing a towel down on the floor when your water pipe is broken. First, turn off the water; THEN clean the water up. This is part of turning off the water.

My solution was mentioned in the other thread on this topic.

You said the govt. is shut down because an outsider wants to fix the problem. That's simply not true based on the fact that no "solution" offered by Trump is an actual solution.

The fact that you trust govt. to have some sort of pathway or part solution is admirable, but laughable. They only want more of you and I's tax money to spend on whatever project they deem as a solution.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Nothing resembling value from you, as always...

You'd certainly know all about that, wouldn't you?

 

[This_person]

That assumes she wants one.

I have stated pretty clearly I do not think she wants one.

You said the govt. is shut down because an outsider wants to fix the problem. That's simply not true based on the fact that no "solution" offered by Trump is an actual solution.

As I said, it's partial, with there being several other things that need to happen (some of which Trump brought up, most of which no one in government has brought up).

The problem he's trying to solve, in this case, is getting government back up and running while actually doing one of the few things it is supposed to do.

The fact that you trust govt. to have some sort of pathway or part solution is admirable, but laughable. They only want more of you and I's tax money to spend on whatever project they deem as a solution.

That's why we have to watch them. Securing our borders actually IS one of the things the federal government is actually supposed to do.

 

[SamSpade]

but visa overstays also have to be taken into account.

And you know, every set of stats I read on that says, at very very worst, it might be 42-46% of the problem, IF we accept that
there's only 11 million illegal aliens in the country. And the stats strongly suggest that far too many persons from countries other
than Mexico and Latin America would be here illegally, since the number one transgressor of visa overstays - by a factor of 2.5 to 1 -
is *Canada*.

Wish I had a nickel for every time I heard a liberal pundit say that MOST of it is visa overstays. Not even Politifact says that.
As I said before, it's no WORSE than 46% and only if the 11 million number is accurate. And one fifth of those are Canadians,
another fifth are Mexico, Brazil, Venezuela and Colombia - COMBINED. More come from the UK, Germany and Italy than Mexico.

Do you see where I am going with this? You and me and McGee and every Tom, Dick and Harry know that we have an inundation
of illegal aliens from south of the border. We know this. You barely need to prove it, with the influx of Spanish speakers. We're not
hit with an equal wave of CHINESE or GERMAN speakers, even though combined, they're about equal with Mexico on visa overstays.

The data just isn't there. The threat is illegal crossings, catch and release, and so forth. It's not visa overstays. That argument needs
to be put to bed right away. Especially if the *true* number of illegals is upwards of 22 or more million.

Plus, you read the stuff from the government - and they do a REALLY good job of tracking who is here and who isn't. It sounds
like what they do SUCKS, but they get all but 1-2%, because we have so many millions who come here. I used to think they
must suck at it, because so many get through, but their failure rate is really small. They "get" 98-99% of visa holders.

NOT so much at the border.

 

[vraiblonde]

You yourself have admitted that a 230 mile wall won't fix the problem.

But it will go a long way toward alleviating it, and all you have to do to know that is look at communities that DO have a wall.

This is what pisses me off the most about people like you: you know better. I know you know better. I've SEEN you know better. And yet you fall back on these retarded talking points that I know you know are retarded.

I mean, why should someone with cancer get any treatment? It's probably not going to 100% cure them or make it so they never had the cancer in the first place, right? So why bother?

 

[Chris0nllyn]

I mean, why should someone with cancer get any treatment? It's probably not going to 100% cure them or make it so they never had the cancer in the first place, right? So why bother?

Speaking of retarded....

 

[vraiblonde]

Speaking of retarded....

Hey, I'm not the one huffing that unless a plan is 100% perfect and will completely eliminate a large and complex problem, it sucks. That would be you, sweetie.

I'm curious what happened to you. You used to be a rational person with legitimate viewpoints. What turned you into an ignorant raving progbot?

 

[mAlice]

What turned you into an ignorant raving progbot?

Losing.

 

[SamSpade]

Neither side is in good faith, so we'll sit here and watch 800,000 people bitch and moan about their jobs while some of us think "Boy, all these people out of work and nothing's really changed"..

BTW - turns out, my section is actually funded for the year, now. So at least I don't have to worry, although a lot of our support staff are only part-time.

But you could erase 800,000 employees from almost any industry in the nation, and chances are, you "wouldn't notice".
At least, not until you needed them. Generally, I hate that expression that says, wow, government's shut down and no one noticed.
For example, that would be about a tenth of all hospital staff in the nation - cut them, and you won't notice - unless you really need to go to one.