Politics As Religion

[MGKrebs]

So since the election I've been talking to a lot of people about what attracts them to conservatism. Most of you guys are more thoughtful about this than others I talk to, but in any case, I have some observations to throw out there;

1. Most people do not want to pay attention to politics, therefore;
2. They respond to simple messages that almost everyone can agree with, i.e., less taxes, less waste in government, strong leadership, self sufficiency.
3. Clear cut morality- this is right, that is wrong. You are a friend or an enemy.
4. When it comes to the details of how to implement these ideas, we are to trust our leaders to do the right thing.

To me, this starts to look a lot like a doctrine for a religion. Lay out a morality that the masses can identify with, insist on trust in the leaders, and essentially condemn those who disagree.

My problem with this, in both politics and religion, is that once you start down the road of accepting things on faith, we no longer have any red flags to tell us when things are going awry.

I think that under the circumstances, the results of the last election were inevitable, but I think that in this time of sound bites, cynicism, and perceived powerlessness, the liberals will continue to have a hard time getting their message out.

Liberals, by definition, try to incorporate many viewpoints into their agenda. But this makes for a complicated message and a compromising attitude, which doesn't sell right now.

Not sure where I'm going with this- just some thoughts.

 

[vraiblonde]

Maynard, I couldn't agree with you more. I get tired of that "friend or foe" mentality when it comes to both politics AND religion.

I think you're exactly right when you say that people need quick soundbites because they're not really interested and aren't paying attention. People pick a side (Democrat or Republican, Christian or otherwise) and follow doctrine rather than make up their own mind about what makes sense and what doesn't.

I find it all very tiresome and when someone starts spouting political "ideas" they heard on TV, I tune them out. Just like those door-knockers that want you to join their church because they're so certain that there's only one way to Heaven.

 

[Tonio]

Since I'm an independent voter, I don't have a dog in the lib/con fight. Here are some random thoughts of my own:

Communication and transportation are much more convenient than they were even 50 years ago. So it has become easier to form single-issue political movements, and to form alliances among like-minded movements.

If the US was a parliamentary democracy, those movements probably would have consolidated into actual political parties. But for several reasons, the movements have become either special interests or small third parties with devoted followings.

Now, both the Big Two and the small extremist movements practice politics as religion. I think the difference is that the Dems and Reps reduce it to team sports, the "us against them" attitude. The special interests keep the focus on a particular issue.

Television is the other factor in political extremism. It's hard to debate a rational, substantive approach to issues in a medium so driven by sound bites and personalities. Shows like Crossfire are no different in spirit and tone from the WWF.

The blue & red 2000 election map was truly scary. During the election, I think the media dropped the ball in not focusing on why urban voters and rural voters were so far apart. I've been following politics for nearly 30 years, and I'm convinced that race is a big reason for the urban/rural divide. I've heard too many debates on government spending and school redistricting not to believe otherwise.

You want to talk about accepting things on faith? How about the OJ trial? I didn't know any white people who would even admit that there was a possibility that he was innocent. And I didn't know any black people who would even admit that there was a possibility that he was guilty.

 

[SmallTown]

Originally posted by Tonio

You want to talk about accepting things on faith? How about the OJ trial? I didn't know any white people who would even admit that there was a possibility that he was innocent. And I didn't know any black people who would even admit that there was a possibility that he was guilty.

Well, you can now mark one down for white side

 

[Kyle]

I ran into quite a few caucasions who thought he was innocent. Of course these folks also voted for Clinton and thought he did nothing wrong too.

 

[vraiblonde]

How about the OJ trial? I didn't know any white people who would even admit that there was a possibility that he was innocent.

Mark another for me - my husband and I had some rather spirited conversations about the OJ trial. It just seemed implausible to me that he would hack his wife up with his kids right upstairs.

Shows like Crossfire are no different in spirit and tone from the WWF.

True that!

 

[MGKrebs]

I'm still not sure about OJ, but

I came away with the feeling that the cops screwed up the case so much that there was no way to tell. In which case, you probably have to acquit.

 

[MGKrebs]

I think race is there, too, Tonio.

As well as a "class" issue, which may be mostly the same thing. We seem more intent on finding and punishing poor people for scamming an extra thirty bucks a week from welfare than we are rich guys who steal millions at a time.

 

[Republican]

Tonio
There is another way of looking at the map. Large cities use to be involved in manufacturing and producing items. As we have evolved to the services industry instead of production the "Large Cities" have become slum areas with people dependent on large Goverment while the others are self-sufficent and do not look kindly on goverment interfering in their daily activities. The large cities are not cost effective as we see in Maryland. Baltimore eats up a major part of the state budget without any real progress in such things as education and etc. Other comments!!

 

[Tonio]

Originally posted by Republican
Tonio
There is another way of looking at the map. Large cities use to be involved in manufacturing and producing items. As we have evolved to the services industry instead of production the "Large Cities" have become slum areas with people dependent on large Goverment while the others are self-sufficent and do not look kindly on goverment interfering in their daily activities. The large cities are not cost effective as we see in Maryland. Baltimore eats up a major part of the state budget without any real progress in such things as education and etc. Other comments!!

I've never bought the idea that welfare recipients vote for pro-welfare candidates. Welfare recipients simply don't vote. I have family members who have worked in social services, and they say people on welfare focus on nothing but maintaining their benefits. They aren't even aware that elections are going on. That's one of many reasons I feel that welfare needs to be fixed or done away with.

You're right that people in rural areas are disdainful of government. Talk to some watermen. By and large, they can't accept the idea that anyone in government would know more about what's happening with the Bay than the people who work it every day.

 

[Larry Gude]

Krebs...

Take it another step further.

Politics is to religion as religion is to...

Ta da! Marketing.

Marketing is selling.

Selling what? Selling social order in order to provide a framework for a given society to survive and prosper.

You are way over estimating "attraction"

what attracts them to conservatism.

There are only two real choices. Given that, half of us quit and don't bother. Hence the (now) minor appeal of other choices, Green, Reform, Indy, et al.

None of us are happy with our chosen party, many not even close, but, when you can rationalize that a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush and do it anyway, all that says is that one party, the dems, are less palatable to more people right now than the other.

Back to marketing. I am not a target. Given the choice of Jimmy Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Clinton2 and Gore, I voted for, respectively, Reagan over Mondale (I was to young for jimbo), Buchanan, Bush, Dole and Keyes.

The target of the “religion, or, marketing, is Tonio and other "moderates" or indies or whatever, IE, the people who might go one way (dem) or the other (GOP) if one of the major choices is so bad (Carter, Mondale, Dukakis, Gore).

For some reason, the mods love Clinton. That is my cross to bear. I’m truly afraid I understand them, thus…

…maybe getting into "religion" is useful to get an image in ones head but in order for it to be "true" religion, IE maintaining faith against the obvious, you have to really be devoted, like Clinton deniers.

 

[Republican]

Tonio
I did not mean to infer that the urban are all welfare types, but that they are non-producers. They mostly take from the system without really producing anything. I would like to take exception to your concept that walfare recipients do not vote. Look at the state elections and the slum areas. Even the dead vote in the depressed areas! Working class police officers donated time to oversee the election at some of the poles in Baltimore to ensure proper election procedures and to elimate fraud by the Democraps as in previous elections. Either the walfare recipients are voting or they are being represented by others. If they were not involved in the election process, how could they ensure their future. Republicans want to help people when they are down while the Democraps want them to remain dependent on large government. Perhaps we have difference in phyilosophy between the two major political parties in how to handle walfare. Religious organizations should also step up to the plate and help some of those who are down on their luck. In short, walfare should not become a way of life and a "Real Man or Woman" will stand up and work to support themselves and met their responsibilities. Additionally, if you have watch the Fox channel you will note that a lot of the charitable organizations are only ripping off the public, collecting and spending the money on several things other than helping our people in need. I can go into a lot of details at even the local level here about charitable organization during the Toronado in La Plata. Needless to say only the Salvation Army will be getting any funds or help from me or my family.

 

[MGKrebs]

I flat out disagree with the premise, Republican

I don't know about up there (Baltimore?), but down here, the city is thriving.

20-30 years ago, many people moved out of the city to the burbs, for whatever reason. Now they are moving back. They can't convert old warehouses into lofts fast enough. The most expensive residential real estate in the state is in the cities. Most cities seem to be going through a revitalzation.

The fact that we are transitioning to a service economy from a manufacturing has nothing to do with politics (I don't think?). It's just that our standard of living has gotten so high compared to many other countries, we can't compete at things they can do. I can't make any distinction between city people and suburban people except that I think suburban types historically have been more likely to have kids because people don't want to raise kids in the city (traffic, crime, more expensive houses and lots).

I live in a city, not because i want to be dependant on a big government, but because i like to be able to be INdependant and anonymous when I want. I grew up in a small town, and i couldn't go anywhere without everybody knowing what I was doing every day and talking about it.

Also, different neighbohoods in the city have different "flavors". I like the diversity. I don't think you get as much of that in the burbs.

 

[Republican]

Quote: MGKrebs:
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I don't know about up there (Baltimore?), but down here, the city is thriving.

20-30 years ago, many people moved out of the city to the burbs, for whatever reason. Now they are moving back. They can't convert old warehouses into lofts fast enough. The most expensive residential real estate in the state is in the cities. Most cities seem to be going through a revitalzation.

The fact that we are transitioning to a service economy from a manufacturing has nothing to do with politics (I don't think?). It's just that our standard of living has gotten so high compared to many other countries, we can't compete at things they can do. I can't make any distinction between city people and suburban people except that I think suburban types historically have been more likely to have kids because people don't want to raise kids in the city (traffic, crime, more expensive houses and lots).

I live in a city, not because i want to be dependant on a big government, but because i like to be able to be INdependant and anonymous when I want. I grew up in a small town, and i couldn't go anywhere without everybody knowing what I was doing every day and talking about it.

Also, different neighbohoods in the city have different "flavors". I like the diversity. I don't think you get as much of that in the burbs

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The map that Tonio refered to indicates that politics must play a lot into the selection of life styles. I do not know where you are located but you went to all the trouble of listing the reasons no one wants to live in the cities. We raise a lot more than just kids in the country areas. Being anonymous is a cop out. Our Republic is based on leaders coming forward and being counted on in times of need. I am proud to be a member of a community that comes together when we need to. We are not all the same in the country and we have diversity, but we do not shove it down the throat of our neighbors nor do we feel the need to reminiscent of the past.

 

[Republican]

Quote: MGKrebs:
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I don't know about up there (Baltimore?), but down here, the city is thriving.

20-30 years ago, many people moved out of the city to the burbs, for whatever reason. Now they are moving back. They can't convert old warehouses into lofts fast enough. The most expensive residential real estate in the state is in the cities. Most cities seem to be going through a revitalzation.

The fact that we are transitioning to a service economy from a manufacturing has nothing to do with politics (I don't think?). It's just that our standard of living has gotten so high compared to many other countries, we can't compete at things they can do. I can't make any distinction between city people and suburban people except that I think suburban types historically have been more likely to have kids because people don't want to raise kids in the city (traffic, crime, more expensive houses and lots).

I live in a city, not because i want to be dependant on a big government, but because i like to be able to be INdependant and anonymous when I want. I grew up in a small town, and i couldn't go anywhere without everybody knowing what I was doing every day and talking about it.

Also, different neighbohoods in the city have different "flavors". I like the diversity. I don't think you get as much of that in the burbs

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The map that Tonio refered to indicates that politics must play a lot into the selection of life styles. I do not know where you are located but you went to all the trouble of listing the reasons no one wants to live in the cities. We raise a lot more than just kids in the country areas. Being anonymous is a cop out. Our Republic is based on leaders coming forward and being counted on in times of need. I am proud to be a member of a community that comes together when we need to. We are not all the same in the country and we have diversity, but we do not shove it down the throat of our neighbors nor do we feel the need to reminiscent of the past.

 

[justhangn]

Re: Re: I flat out disagree with the premise, Republican

Originally posted by jetmonkey
Right, in Anacostia they jack your hoopdy, in Adams Morgan you get a beat down, armed robbery in Georgetown, Capital Hill they shoot you in the head for crack money, I love the diversity of the city!!!

 

[Kain99]

Here's the thing...... I think that MGKrebs makes a good point regarding politics and religion.

Think about it, MGKrebs is just sitting around one day, thinking about the diffrences between conservatives and liberals... *At the same time I was most likely wondering if that was a gray hair I saw this morning*

If nothing else, you all must admit that your all obsessed! Very similar to religious fanatics that ponder which day Christ was actually born.

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by Kain99
... If nothing else, you all must admit that your all obsessed! Very similar to religious fanatics that ponder which day Christ was actually born.

I know what day Ronny was born!

The only day I ponder is what day "Liberalism" will be declared a capital crime and the gallows are filled!

I'm hoping they'll silk-screen pictures of Barry Goldwater inside the hoods!

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by jetmonkey
Would you let them plea bargain down to 'death' from 'the slow and painful death you deserve'?

Only if they renounce allegiance to Barbara Striesand!

 

[vraiblonde]

....and Al Gore. Or we'll jack their hoopdy!