My Lawyer

Sharon

* * * * * * * * *
Staff member
PREMO Member
MY LAWYER

After living a "decent" life, my time on earth came to an end. The first thing I remember is sitting on a bench in the waiting room of what I thought to be a court house. The doors opened and I was instructed to come in and have a seat by the defense table. As I looked around I saw the "prosecutor." He was a villainous-looking gent who snarled as he stared at me. He definitely was the most evil person I have ever seen. I sat down and looked to my left and there sat my lawyer, a kind and gentle-looking man whose appearance seemed familiar to me. The corner door flew open and there appeared the judge in full flowing robes. He commanded an awesome presence as he moved across the room. I couldn't take my eyes off of him. As he took his seat behind the bench, he said, "Let us begin."

The prosecutor rose and said, "My name is Satan and I am here to show you why this man belongs in hell." He proceeded to tell of lies that I told, things that I stole, and of times in the past when I cheated others. Satan told of other horrible perversions that were once in my life and the more he spoke, the further down in my seat I sank. I was so embarrassed that I couldn't look at anyone, even my own lawyer, as the Devil told of sins that even I had completely forgotten about. As upset as I was at Satan for telling all these things about me, I was equally upset at my representative who sat there silently not offering any form of defense at all. I know I had been guilty of those things, but hadn't I done some good in my life? Couldn't that at least cancel out part of the harm I'd done?

Satan finished with a fury and said, "This man belongs in hell; he is guilty of all that I have charged and there is not a person who can prove otherwise.

When it was his turn, my lawyer first asked if he might approach the bench. The judge allowed this over the strong objection of Satan, and beckoned him to come forward. As he got up and started walking, I was able to see him in his full splendor and majesty. I realized why he seemed so familiar. This was Jesus representing me, my Lord and my Savior. He stopped at the bench and softly said to the judge, "Hi Dad," and then he turned to address the court.

"Satan was correct in saying that this man sinned; I won't deny any of the allegations. And yes, the wage of sin is death, and this man deserves to be punished." Jesus took a deep breath and turned to his Father with outstretched arms and proclaimed, "However, I died on the cross so that this person might have eternal life and he has accepted me as his Savior, so he is mine." My Lord continued with, "His name is written in the book of life and no one can snatch him from me. Satan still does not understand yet. This man is not to be given justice, but rather mercy."

As Jesus sat down, he quietly paused, looked at his Father and replied, "There is nothing else that needs to be done. I've done it all."

The judge lifted his mighty hand and slammed the gavel down. The following words bellowed from his lips... "This man is free. The penalty for him has already been paid in full. Case dismissed."

As my Lord led me away, I could hear Satan ranting and raving, "I won't give up, I'll win the next one."

I asked Jesus as he gave me my instructions where to go next, "Have you ever lost a case?"

Christ lovingly smiled and said, "Everyone that has come to me and asked me to represent them has received the same verdict as you, Paid in Full."
 

BudoPo

Member
This actually raises a question I've been wondering about.  What's the consensus in Christiandom?  If you lead a good, moral life, but don't accept Jesus, do you go to to Heaven or Hell?  Conversely, if you lean a sinful, amoral life, but truly believe in Jesus, where do you go?

The other question I have is what happened to the people who lived before Jesus, and thus could not accept him.
 

jimmy

Drunkard
Budpo,

First off, it depends on which Christian you talk to.  Most of the self-proclaimed Christians I know are very moderate and will tell you that people don't go to hell simply because they do not accept Jesus as their personal lord and savior.  They leave that judgement up to God. However, many fundamentalist, of which there are a good deal on this site, will point you to Jesus's "I am the way, the truth and the light" statement and the like as evidence that only those that give up their lives to Jesus and accept him into their hearts may have eternal salvation.
Now, granted, I am coming at this question from an agnostic's view point (I WAS once deeply religious) but it is issues like this that I just couldn't come to grips with that started my break from the Church.  
If Jesus died for the sins of the world (as is stated) and not believing in Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior is a sin, why then is THAT sin not covered by jesus's sacrificial "catch-all"?  And, for that matter, why would God not be able to reason that the cause for many people not believing in Jesus as the son of God is simply that they were born apart from Christianity or in another religious culture all toghether? Is it just "tough crap" for them?  How is that just?  I mean if you tried to "testify" to a fundamentalist Christian about the prophet Mohammed, what are the chances that he'd listen with an open heart, as Christian evangelists ask of the non-believers?  I'd say none.  So if Christianity's reward only comes to those "fortunate" enough to have been born into a christian household or have some sort of life-changing "awakening" to it's "truths", and THAT'S the way the Christian God works, then count me out.  A being that irrational and short-sighted doesn't seem like much of a "God" to me.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Bud, I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you.  If you truly accept Jesus, you're not going to do immoral things anyway.  You may be bad on occasion but you'll repent and be forgiven, just like the Bible says.  There are tons of people who go to church, preach the gospel then do mean things, lie, cheat and steal.  The Catholic priest child molestors come to mind.  But God knows what's in your heart, so you can fool your fellow man...but not God.  And those Catholic priests either don't really believe what they preach or they're scared sh*tless because they know they're gonna burn.

I actually don't even believe in God, but it seems to me that <i>true</i> Christianity isn't a bad way to live your life so what the heck.
 

BudoPo

Member
Vrai,

I'm not worried about it in the least, since I'm not Christian and don't believe in Jesus.  I was just curious about that aspect, that's all.

Jimmy,

You pretty much asked the same questions I did, or at least expanded on the theme.  I've just been wondering about it.
 

jimmy

Drunkard
Yeah I'd be interested in seeing a christian respond to yours and my line of questioning.  It'd probably spark an interesting discussion as these types of things usually do.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Jimmy, we've already been through this, remember?

I'll tell you what question <i>I'd</i> like to have answered:

Why do non-Christians care soooooo much what Christians think?  Why are they soooo interested in having the Bible explained to them?  They're not going to believe it anyway, so what's the point?
 

BudoPo

Member
Vrai,

Relax.  Just because I don't believe something doesn't mean I don't want to learn about other people's beliefs.  I'm always trying to learn about all sorts of things.  There's just so much out there to discover and explore that it'd be a waste not to learn all you can.  That's all I'm trying to do.  I didn't mean to offend anyone.
 
Y

yornoc

Guest
ALL the questions I've seen here ARE explained in the Bible.  I have to admit that some of the answers require an understanding of the Bible as a whole rather than just "the passage".  If you read the bible and get a good concordance, you will be surprise how much you can learn.  

A good place to start is http://www.bible.com
 

BudoPo

Member
Thanks for the link.  I only gave it a quick look, but it seems like a good place to get the Christian line of thinking.  I'll have to check it out.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
It has been my experience that the Bible raises more questions than it answers, especially if you read it through and not just certain passages.  If you believe that God truly wrote the Bible, then you can't help but be puzzled by all the contradictions.  It's easier to understand it if you realize that God may have <i>inspired</i> the Bible, but Man interpreted it and put it to paper.

For example, God supposedly said "an eye for an eye" but that sounds more like something Man would say, not a divine being.  And then Jesus comes along and says "turn the other cheek".  So what's the right choice?  Does God condone capital punishment or not?  I will suggest to you that, in the more uncivilized times, Man firmly believed in that "eye for an eye" justice.  Then, as we moved into a kinder gentler society, "turn the other cheek" became the preferred method.  We've seen these types of societal changes in our own lifetime, so it's hardly surprising that it would have taken place back then as well.
 
" Religion"    is created by people...and by design , to accomodate the current times.......
The Old and New Testimants are prime examples........
It's only human nature to interpret......to ones experience......
 

BudoPo

Member
I think it's important not to take passages out of context, but out of time, too.  That is, just as you really can't take a short passage out of context, but you also must think of the society in which it was written.  Social rules evolve over time, and vary from culture to culture, so you need to read these things with an understanding of the social values of the times.  Political issues of the time can also be an issue.
 

jimmy

Drunkard
Of course, BudoPo. But as I've experienced on these forums when fundamentalists get involved, they argue that the text of the Bible comes STRAIGHT from God and was NOT modified by man or social atmospheres in anyway. Which, of course, seems ridiculous to me, but that's what they claim. There's even I think a passage in Revelations that basically says that all of the preceeding is the direct word of God and is in no way affected by the hands of man or something to that effect. I belive it may be "somewhere in the back" (for any Simpson's fans)...but anyway, I think it's quite obvious that the Bible was written by man and, thus, influenced by him and the surrounding world in which he lived.  Not to say that that means that God doesn't exist or couldn't have been the impetus behind the writing of the text but I think fundamentalists (many) are so rooted in the idea that the Bible can NEVER be changed etc., that they fall into patterns of outdated ways of thinking and social and cultural regression. (see our HUGE debates over homosexality and harry potter for more on that...)
 

BudoPo

Member
I agree completely.  I don't know the New Testament too well, so I can't comment on the Revelations cite, though.  But, I think the Bible was influenced by God, not a dictation from Him (I guess you can call him a ghost writer? :) ).

Ah, yes.  The Harry Potter debate.  That's a pretty good example of taking things out of context.

Anyway, I agree with your last post.
 

Christy

b*tch rocket
I reckon no one will truly know until they officially "check out".  :dead:  I do believe in God, and feel that God knows your heart and can pretty easily determine if you're going to be pitched into Hell or will be kicking back in Heaven.  I personally don't think it much matters what religion you choose to follow.  We're probably all wrong when it comes to the interpretation of it all anyway.  
 

jimmy

Drunkard
Christy,
That's why I broke with organized religion and decided to just be agnostic. Who am I to think I could determine the will of a being powerful enough to create the universe? Who am I to even assume he/she/it/they exist? who is anyone else to suggest God's will to me either? So I'm just content to sit back and wait and, in the mean time, operate under a set of rules and morality that are socially governed, not divinely inspired...
 

Golden

Member
"fundamentalists (many) are so rooted in the idea that the Bible can NEVER be changed etc., that they fall into patterns of outdated ways of thinking and social and cultural regression."

Jimmy,
Isn't that pretty much the defenition of fundamentalism (originally used for US christions but later applied to others)...mainly a 20th century phenomenon used to describe the religious beliefs of those who feel threatened by the modern world & attempt to find solace by reaching back to what they feel are the basics (or fundamentals) of their religion, but instead come up with a new version as they try adapt those beliefs to a very different world.   The book, "War of God" by Karen Armstrong (an ex-Roman Catholic nun turned agnostic ) is actually a very good read on the subject...not to mention most of her other books which pretty much all deal with religious history (mainly the three western ones...Christianity, Judaism, & Islam).
 

BudoPo

Member
I once heard a guy say this prayer during a news interview (they were debating some religious issue on MacNeil/Lehrer):

"Lord, let me seek the truth, but spare me from those who know it."

It pretty much sums up my feelings.
 

jimmy

Drunkard
Budo,

I like that one. I also like the one (albeit cliched) that goes something to the effect of)
"Give me serenity to accept that which I cannot change
The courage to change that which I can
and the wisdom to know the difference...."

Also a (daoist?) saying that is like "In order to learn anything, you must first admit that you know nothing"...kinda sums up how I feel about life in general...and why I can't belong to one particular religion.
 
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