Abraham and Isaac

Tonio

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
I've been thinking a lot lately about the Abraham and Isaac story. The idea of God requiring a father to sacrifice his son to prove loyalty sounds like a perverse mind game to me. That's because there was no guarantee that God would have stepped in and ended the game. I'm a father and I feel very sad just thinking about being in Abraham's position. I can imagine that Abraham was tempted to sacrifice himself to save his son.

Now, I was recently informed that some Jewish philosophers such as Isaac Ben Luria, Maimonides and Hillel view the story as a Kobiyashi Maru situation. Not as a loyalty test, but as a test of other things: Abraham's credulity, his paternal devotion, or his ability to handle an impossible dilemma. I've never heard that from any Christian philosophers. In fact, in my personal experience, many denominations discourage or even forbid those kinds of interpretations.
 
Bustem' Down

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Tonio said:
Now, I was recently informed that some Jewish philosophers such as Isaac Ben Luria, Maimonides and Hillel view the story as a Kobiyashi Maru situation. Not as a loyalty test, but as a test of other things: Abraham's credulity, his paternal devotion, or his ability to handle an impossible dilemma. I've never heard that from any Christian philosophers. In fact, in my personal experience, many denominations discourage or even forbid those kinds of interpretations.
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Well, when was the last time you heard of a Christian "philosopher"?
 
Toxick

Toxick

Splat
Tonio said:
Not as a loyalty test, but as a test of other things: Abraham's credulity, his paternal devotion, or his ability to handle an impossible dilemma. I've never heard that from any Christian philosophers. In fact, in my personal experience, many denominations discourage or even forbid those kinds of interpretations.
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I've never heard of such interpretations being forbidden by anyone.

In fact, on top of that interpretation, I've also heard that God didn't need a test of Abraham's mettle, since he already knew what Abraham was made of - but perhaps Abraham, himself, needed to be shown of what he was capable of, and also to gain a trust in ALL of God's commands which wasn't quite possible before He stayed Abraham's hand at the last minute.
 
Hessian

Hessian

Well-Known Member
Where was Abraham?
Canaan...
The local people were familiar with child sacrifice (Baal...)
Could this be a demonstration?...Abraham is given proof that Jehovah is a God of Mercy, authority, and rules through providence.VERY different from local dieties.
I AM..not a "god" who demands the blood of children...but I do ask for obedience and devotion...and annual sacrifice of an innocent lamb.
 
R

residentofcre

Guest
Tonio said:
I've been thinking a lot lately about the Abraham and Isaac story. The idea of God requiring a father to sacrifice his son to prove loyalty sounds like a perverse mind game to me. That's because there was no guarantee that God would have stepped in and ended the game. I'm a father and I feel very sad just thinking about being in Abraham's position. I can imagine that Abraham was tempted to sacrifice himself to save his son.

Now, I was recently informed that some Jewish philosophers such as Isaac Ben Luria, Maimonides and Hillel view the story as a Kobiyashi Maru situation. Not as a loyalty test, but as a test of other things: Abraham's credulity, his paternal devotion, or his ability to handle an impossible dilemma. I've never heard that from any Christian philosophers. In fact, in my personal experience, many denominations discourage or even forbid those kinds of interpretations.
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I heard that God chose Abraham because He knew Abraham would obey. The whole account was God's way of showing us the sacrifice He was making for us... God the Father could have stepped in at the Cross but He didn't because Jesus had to Raise again...
 
wxtornado

wxtornado

The Other White Meat
Tonio said:
I've been thinking a lot lately about the Abraham and Isaac story. The idea of God requiring a father to sacrifice his son to prove loyalty sounds like a perverse mind game to me.
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Agree. Why would God ever need to disingenuously ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, if God didn't really want the sacrifice to take place? The common answer is "God wanted to test Abraham's faith."

But God is supposed to be omniscient, and would know exactly how much faith Abraham had without having to test for it. And similarly, Abraham would know exactly how much faith he had, so there was no need to demonstrate it to himself. The only remaining plausible reason is that the Bible authors wanted to make a point about it's a good thing to have a lot of faith in God, without carefully thinking through the idea that God really doesn't need to "test" anyone's faith, unless He's a cruel bastard as He appears in the story about Abraham and Jacob.

If the event actually happened, I'd bet a fair amount of money on the proposition that Abraham was paranoid schizophrenic, overcome with the responsibilities of leading an entire nation of Hebrews.

Anyways, that's a brutal, cruel, heartless variety of "mercy" - God ordering a human sacrifice, and then "mercifully" backing out on it. If such a God existed, I would be morally compelled to try to destroy it.
 
Bustem' Down

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
wxtornado said:
Agree. Why would God ever need to disingenuously ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, if God didn't really want the sacrifice to take place? The common answer is "God wanted to test Abraham's faith."

But God is supposed to be omniscient, and would know exactly how much faith Abraham had without having to test for it. And similarly, Abraham would know exactly how much faith he had, so there was no need to demonstrate it to himself. The only remaining plausible reason is that the Bible authors wanted to make a point about it's a good thing to have a lot of faith in God, without carefully thinking through the idea that God really doesn't need to "test" anyone's faith, unless He's a cruel bastard as He appears in the story about Abraham and Jacob.

If the event actually happened, I'd bet a fair amount of money on the proposition that Abraham was paranoid schizophrenic, overcome with the responsibilities of leading an entire nation of Hebrews.

Anyways, that's a brutal, cruel, heartless variety of "mercy" - God ordering a human sacrifice, and then "mercifully" backing out on it. If such a God existed, I would be morally compelled to try to destroy it.
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You also have to remember that these stories are about Judiasm and Mosaic Law not Christianity and the New covenant of Jesus Christ.
 
Tonio

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
Hessian said:
Canaan...
The local people were familiar with child sacrifice (Baal...)
Could this be a demonstration?...Abraham is given proof that Jehovah is a God of Mercy, authority, and rules through providence.VERY different from local dieties.
Click to expand...

Most people probably don't know about the local religions in Abraham's time, and probably have never heard of Ba'al. I never heard of that history until a few years ago. That's one reason I reject the idea of Biblical inerrancy--we don't know the authors' intentions, and much of the cultural background is lost forever. I've been reading "Misquoting Jesus" by Biblical scholar Bart Ehrman. His speciality is textual criticism, and unlike the authors of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," he doesn't have a theological axe to grind.
 
J

JPC, Sr.

Guest
The Wizard!

Bustem' Down said:
Your a retard.
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:larry: Even if I am a "retard" then I am still right in what I posted.

Being a retard is never going to make B'D right. :howdy:
 
Bustem' Down

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
JPC said:
:larry: Even if I am a "retard" then I am still right in what I posted.

Being a retard is never going to make B'D right. :howdy:
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No, your a retard because your post was completely unrelated and meaningless in response to what I said. I have a KJV Bible sitting on my shelf right behind me. I'm familiar with the story, so your quoting of the passages brought nothing to the table.
 
J

JPC, Sr.

Guest
The Wizard!

JPC said:
:larry: Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac, it was an act of faith, says that here,

Bible book of Hebrews 11:17-20, King James Version.
:whistle:
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FYI,

:whistle: My link given in the quote above was relevant and directly refering to the subject of this thread and it is the only reference on this thread to the teachings from the Christian New Testiment (Hebrews 11:17-20) about Abraham sacrificing Isaac.

So I stand assured and I stand behind what I posted. :huggy:
 
Bustem' Down

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
JPC said:
FYI,

:whistle: My link given in the quote above was relevant and directly refering to the subject of this thread and it is the only reference on this thread to the teachings from the Christian New Testiment (Hebrews 11:17-20) about Abraham sacrificing Isaac.

So I stand assured and I stand behind what I posted. :huggy:
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Then your a retard because you do not know how to use the quote function. I stand behind what I say.
 
J

JPC, Sr.

Guest
The Wizard!

Bustem' Down said:
Then your a retard because you do not know how to use the quote function. I stand behind what I say.
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:larry: I consider all retards to be my friends and I love them all. So be it.
:bigwhoop:
 
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