Are Republicans truly for a smaller government?

Cheerios

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More Contractors, Less Government Employees

It is now where there are more contractors then government employees - clerk typists are given the titles financial technician starting at $14.00 - the government is non-profit - Those contractors sure aren't non-profit - A gal at the social security office told me that they were thinking about contracting out their jobs - and that takes a lot of years to learn something that intricate - hope it didn't happen and won't -
 
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Yes, Reps are for smaller gov. which is double speak for bigger contractors in the private sector. So when they leave office they can head up the multi billion firm that they created with lucrative contracts the previous 4 years. In Southern MD there is looming talk of the local Dept. of Labor being taken over by McDonald Douglas if the numbers don't improve....Hmmm, will that be any better? What vested interest do private companies have in broke people?...Now ya gotta put a lotta salt in the DLLR being taken over, that's what "could" happen if things don't get better. But the big kicker is that people think that this will save taxpayer dollars...Doesn't matter who heads up the work, tax money pays the contract...
 
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Bruzilla

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Geeze... do you guys ever have it wrong. It's much cheaper to use contractors than to use government people. If you take a look at government labor rates (which cover salary and benefits), plus pass-throughs, plus site taxes, your average government employee costs about 30%-50% more than a contractor. Our burdened labor rates at the last contractor I worked for, which include salary plus overhead costs (electric bill, vacation time, holidays, office space, etc.) was $50/hr for technical people and $40/hr for clerical. Those same positions for government employees costs $100 to $120/hr.

Although contractors are "For Profit" companies, most government contracts limit the amount of profit that a contractor can make. So a contractor that makes 50%-300% profit on civilian contracts is usually limited to about 11%-12% profit on government contracts. This is a strong motivation to keep costs to a minimum, especially personnel costs. The government has no such restrictions for government workers, and if they need to pay their people more they just increase the spending levels since there's really no requirement to keep costs down in most cases.

The down-side to some contracts is that companies try to squeeze every last cent out of a contract and service can suffer. High personnel turnover rates due to low salaries are a prime example. The government offers pretty much lifetime employment with great benefits and nice salaries, so they don't have to deal with turnover problems that much.

But to answer the primary question, I say No... Republicans haven't done squat to decrease the size of government. They are trying to outspend the Democrats to win votes, and that's a bad move. I know I'm not the only Republican who's very disappointed in the lack of action, on lots of issues, that our current Congress has shown. They pointed at the "Do Nothing" congresses of the Dems, then they became a Do Nothing congress themselves. :barf: :mad:
 
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Hey thanks for the insight Bruzilla. I can agree with some od what you say. Gov employees do have it good as far as security. The downside with that I've noticed is that they get very complacent and burned out but there's no incentive to increase productivity much. A contractor's job seems to be less secure and usually time sensitive.
It's also inpressive to hear from a Republican who disagrees with some of the GOP's ideas. I thought that was verboten in So.MD-land...
 
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Heretic

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Bru, I dont know which government employees you got your labor rate from but as a GS-13 engineer I cost $48 an hour and the equilivant person and Boeing or NG costs $80+
 
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Bruzilla

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I can guarantee you Heretic that as a GS-13 you're costing a lot more than $48 an hour, no matter where you work for the government. Whoever told you that your rate was that low wasn't factoring in a lot of expenses that should be added into your rate especially if you work aboard NAS and you have any office space there.

My favorite story about government workers cane from when I worked at the Sheriff's Office. They had one gal working there who handled all of the warrants. She told me that in Prince Georges County, they have three girls doing the work that she does alone. I told her that if she had two coworkers down here, she would quickly discover that there would be no way to ever get the work done with just one person anymore. She got the work done with one person because that's all she had to work with.

I hate to crap on government workers, but they frequently do leave a lot to be desired. They usually do suffer from a lack of motivation because it's dang near impossible to fire them, they get paid the same amount whether they do the minimum or the maximum, you can still get promoted regardless of how much or how little effort you expend, and you don't have to worry about ticking off your customer and losing business since your income is from tax dollars.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Originally posted by Bruzilla
I hate to crap on government workers, but they frequently do leave a lot to be desired. They usually do suffer from a lack of motivation because it's dang near impossible to fire them, they get paid the same amount whether they do the minimum or the maximum, you can still get promoted regardless of how much or how little effort you expend, and you don't have to worry about ticking off your customer and losing business since your income is from tax dollars.
:bs: Government employees, like their private counterparts, are only as motivated as their management allows them to be. The group that I work with is extremely motivated and dedicated to the tasks at hand. We understand our role and function within the big picture and we strive to be the best at what we do. Like you, I have seen others that aren’t motivated but they are the exception rather than the rule. Government employees are not hard to fire either (another of many myths being bantered about by those that have no clue), the supervisor must thoroughly document performance issues to remove a person but it isn’t difficult and is done. For other types of dismissals (misconduct, security violations, etc.) it is even easier. They also don’t get promoted unless they can demonstrate that they are qualified for a position. With the centralization of the HRO functions it is virtually impossible to receive an unjustified promotion. And we certainly have to worry about the satisfaction of our customers. Within my competency we are almost fully direct funded, without our customer base bringing work to us (and the associated funding) we would fold. That is why we are very customer oriented.
 
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Bruzilla

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I say good on you Ken, but from my experience you are the exception to the rule. I've worked with NAVAIR, SPAWAR, and NAVSEA on the USN side, plus several USMC and USAF competencies on the DoD part of the house, plus the FBI and the USCG. I've also worked with the Departments of Education, Housing & Urban Development, and the FAA.

All of these organizations, or the elements of them that I worked with, met the general operating conditions that I described above. I saw several examples of poor performers being transferred out to other divisions or positions because it was easier to get rid of them that way then to go through the hassles of dismissing them. I've seen many examples of people being promoted into positions because of seniority (much to the chagrin of others who were more qualified), because of nepotism and favoritism, and as a means of getting rid of a bad performer.

By far, the worst government workers I've seen are in the Department of Education. It takes forever to get something done there because they have four times the number of people needed to get the job done, and every one of them has to do some small part of the effort to justify their existence. That's also why their passthroughs are so sky high!
 
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Heretic

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Bru, I work for a cost recovery center meaning that we take alot of outside work, we charge $48 an hour. We have some contractors working along side us and they cost a program $80+ depending on who the company works for.
 

SmallTown

Football season!
Originally posted by Heretic
Bru, I work for a cost recovery center meaning that we take alot of outside work, we charge $48 an hour. We have some contractors working along side us and they cost a program $80+ depending on who the company works for.

No wonder our federal budget is so out of wack. A GS-13 only charging $48 hour means the government is losing money when you factor in paid time off (vacation, sick, holiday), health insurance, contract-paid travel/expenses, etc.

With the government people I have worked with in the past, they were charging more than the contractors.
 

alex

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Ken is right about motivation being the key with government workers. How much motivation can a worker have when they are being "abused" by their employer?

Case in point - County can only do wet month perc tests during certain months of each year. This year they were so overwhelmed that they hired state/county employees from other areas to help. Sounds good doesn't it?

Well the county employees, who were working almost 7 days a week for months, only got comp time for excess hours. The outside guys were getting paid by per perc test. For most of these people it was cheaper to take a day off with or without pay and work here cause they made more money. How much of a moral buster do you think that is to the existing employees?

Not one county employee will get any $$ reward for this work. They will be told they should be happy to have a job! So the BS about job security, especially during the current fiscal crisis, is a joke. Government employees get laid off just like the rest of us.
 
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Bruzilla

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I've worked for, or with, the Federal Government for 25 years now, and I've never, ever, seen an employee fired or layed off. Never. If a budget gets cut, those people get moved over to another position that's funded. If they are screw ups they get transferred or promoted.

Now I'm sure that some employees have been fired or layed off... I'm just saying I've never seen it happen.

By the way... in my 25 years of service I've never gotten one penny of overtime despite working between 45-70+ hours a week. I also do not get comp time either. As an exempt employee I'm expected to get the job done regardless of how long it takes, and if I have to put in a ton of uncompensated hours, that's just a cost of doing business. So if you're not getting paid for working extra hours as a government employee, all I can say is welcome to the club.:biggrin:
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Originally posted by Bruzilla
I've worked for, or with, the Federal Government for 25 years now, and I've never, ever, seen an employee fired or layed off. Never. If a budget gets cut, those people get moved over to another position that's funded. If they are screw ups they get transferred or promoted.

Now I'm sure that some employees have been fired or layed off... I'm just saying I've never seen it happen.
Well, I’ve worked for, or with, the Federal Government for over 25 years now, and I personally know of over 2 dozen firings here at Patuxent River. I am also knowledgeable of various RIFs that have impacted many Federal Employees with a lay-off. They happen, matter of fact many here at Pax just got a nice little mailing from HRO on the topic of RIF. I spent about 6 years as a steward and Chief Steward for the local American Federation of Government Employees Local here at Pax.

By the way... in my 25 years of service I've never gotten one penny of overtime despite working between 45-70+ hours a week. I also do not get comp time either. As an exempt employee I'm expected to get the job done regardless of how long it takes, and if I have to put in a ton of uncompensated hours, that's just a cost of doing business. So if you're not getting paid for working extra hours as a government employee, all I can say is welcome to the club.:biggrin:
Federal employees get compensated for the time they work, even exempt employees. Don’t know what gave you the idea that they didn’t.
 
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Bruzilla

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Originally posted by Ken King
Well, I’ve worked for, or with, the Federal Government for over 25 years now, and I personally know of over 2 dozen firings here at Patuxent River. I am also knowledgeable of various RIFs that have impacted many Federal Employees with a lay-off. They happen, matter of fact many here at Pax just got a nice little mailing from HRO on the topic of RIF. I spent about 6 years as a steward and Chief Steward for the local American Federation of Government Employees Local here at Pax.


Federal employees get compensated for the time they work, even exempt employees. Don’t know what gave you the idea that they didn’t.

Ken, like I said, I'm just reporting what I have experienced. If you have seen different, fine.

Actually, I was responding to Alex's statement about the Perc testers not being compensated except by comp time, but I thank you for your information. I've always been told by the Govies that I support that they do not get paid for extra hours, and more than a few of them have trouble getting comp time.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Originally posted by Bruzilla
I've always been told by the Govies that I support that they do not get paid for extra hours, and more than a few of them have trouble getting comp time.
They might have told you that but it is :bs: . The laws/regulations governing Federal pay (including overtime and compensatory time) are very clear and a federal employee cannot suffer work without compensation.
 

alex

Member
Ken,

Maybe they get the comp time but have trouble using it?

Often comp time usage rules are very restrictive. I know one place where I worked you were not allowed to use more than 2 comp days in a row and they could not be combined with vacation time or used to extend a holiday i.e., make a three day weekend into a 4 or 5 day weekend. Plus it could not be carried over. It was considered use or loss time.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Originally posted by alex
Ken,

Maybe they get the comp time but have trouble using it?

Often comp time usage rules are very restrictive. I know one place where I worked you were not allowed to use more than 2 comp days in a row and they could not be combined with vacation time or used to extend a holiday i.e., make a three day weekend into a 4 or 5 day weekend. Plus it could not be carried over. It was considered use or loss time.
I don't think that is the case. Compensatory time does have restrictions, like you can only carry over 80 hours to the next leave year. Excess compensatory time is cashed out if over the carry over amount. Remember we are talking about the Fed and they have rules and regulations for everything. Maybe some of those making these claims just don't know the rules or are going on what some other person lacking knowledge has told them versus what is factually accurate.
 
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Bruzilla

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Change 1... I was just at a NAVAIR meeting and word was put out that they are looking at a 25% RIF for NAVAIR... so I guess there's a first time for everything. But... here's how it will work (if it actually happens):

Senior people will get to bump junior people, so a GS-14 who loses their job gets to snag the job of a GS-13, who gets to snag the job of a GS-12, and so on down the line. So the seniorist people will still have a job.

A lot of positions will switch over to being contractor support, so expect the GS-11 at the bottom of the totem pole to switch over to a CSS job (with the Government's blessings of course.)

What really bites is that the median age of civies at NAVAIR is 46, and increasing by about a year every year. If you have a RIF, the senior guys stay and your new blood gets the boot. That'll come back to haunt some folks.
 
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