Work to the Rule

This might stir up a hornets nest, but I do not agree with Work to the Rule.

Teachers are not underpaid. Go to the SMCPS website(http://www.smcps.k12.md.us/hr/teacher-salaries.htm) to see the pay scales. Starting Salary is $34,580 for a 190 day school year with a 7.5 hour school day of which 1/2 hour is lunch. This workday also includes a planning period.

Now let us compare that to a person who works a full year.

To make my comparison I assume that a 12 month worker will work approximately 241 days a year (365 days less 104 weekend days less 10 vacation days less 10 Federal Holidays).

Now for the difficult part, comparing a 190 day year to a 241 day year by solving a simple ratio problem for X. X being the salary equivalent of a 241 day work year.

x/241 = 34580/190. Solving for x you get a $43,862 12 month equivalent.

I don't think this is unreasonable pay.

The bottom line is, if the teachers receive their request for a 4% raise and no increase in health care cost will they teach at least 4% better next year.

I will gladly discuss other issues as to why teachers might deserve this increase. For instance extra time outside work, $2 billion MD budget deficit, No child left behind etc.

OK, I'll Bite

Having been married to a teacher for the past 11 years, I believe I can add my two cents in here.

First we will start with your pay comparison in a striaght manner.

You maintian the 12 month worker works 241 days. So 241 days times 8 hours a day equals 1928 hours of work. Take the $43,862 a year a divide by the 1928 hours and you end up with $22.75per hour

Now the teacher, works 190 days at 7.5 hours per day, which is 1425 hours. Take the $34,580 a year divide by 1425 hours and you end up with $24.26 per hour.

Now you say they get a planning period, obviously you have never tried to grade 120 math exams, spelling test, book reports, and plan the next lessons in a one hour period, it just cannot be done. Both students and parents expect grades to be given out for the work as soon as possible. So most of the teachers I know spend at least an hour and a half each day after school doing this work. So now (if the teacher is lucky) we are up to 9 hours a day times 190 days equaling 1710 hours per year. So $34,580 divided by the 1710 hours is now down to $20.22 per hour.

The administration also "encourages" the teacher to "volunteer" extra time for events such as the PTA, school carnivals, fund raising. I will use 50 hours for the year for that number, though it may be a little high (or for some a little low). So now we are up to 1760 hours of work per year. Dividing that into the $34,580 annual salary we are down to $19.64 per hour.

(Now I don't know about you, but most of the babysitters I know/use charge two to three dollars per hour, per kid for babysitting, which means a babysitter whould get at least $40 pr hour to babysit the kids at school)

Now, about the summers off. My wife, and the other teachers I know ussually spend that taking a summer class or two. The state requires teachers to stay current in their fields, and requires these courses to keep their teaching certificates. And I have yet to see my wife get reimburssed for any of these classes.

Not to mention, are kids spend a good majority of their time in school, so that they may one day take our place in society and run the world. By paying our teachers a low salary, (and believe me the county pays low compared to other places - for instance the starting salary in one of the school districts in Pennsylvania is $60,000) it encourages the good teachers to either teach elswhere or not teach at all, leaving the school with trying to fill the slots with some who are mediocre or should not be teaching at all.

Re: OK, I'll Bite

Originally posted by Makavide
Having been married to a teacher for the past 11 years, I believe I can add my two cents in here.

First we will start with your pay comparison in a striaght manner.

You maintian the 12 month worker works 241 days. So 241 days times 8 hours a day equals 1928 hours of work. Take the $43,862 a year a divide by the 1928 hours and you end up with $22.75per hour

Now the teacher, works 190 days at 7.5 hours per day, which is 1425 hours. Take the $34,580 a year divide by 1425 hours and you end up with $24.26 per hour.

Now you say they get a planning period, obviously you have never tried to grade 120 math exams, spelling test, book reports, and plan the next lessons in a one hour period, it just cannot be done. Both students and parents expect grades to be given out for the work as soon as possible. So most of the teachers I know spend at least an hour and a half each day after school doing this work. So now (if the teacher is lucky) we are up to 9 hours a day times 190 days equaling 1710 hours per year. So $34,580 divided by the 1710 hours is now down to $20.22 per hour.

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Without regard to how you achieved the dollar figure $20.22 is good starting pay.

The administration also "encourages" the teacher to "volunteer" extra time for events such as the PTA, school carnivals, fund raising. I will use 50 hours for the year for that number, though it may be a little high (or for some a little low). So now we are up to 1760 hours of work per year. Dividing that into the $34,580 annual salary we are down to $19.64 per hour.

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Still good money, though I doubt if anyone should account for these extra hours as part of the job as this is still voluntary, the school does not force them to do this, right?

Now, about the summers off. My wife, and the other teachers I know ussually spend that taking a summer class or two. The state requires teachers to stay current in their fields, and requires these courses to keep their teaching certificates. And I have yet to see my wife get reimburssed for any of these classes.

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Really? Maybe she needs to check into the agreement between the Education Association of St. Mary’s County and the Board of Education of St. Mary’s County. Specifically Article IX - http://www.smcps.k12.md.us/hr/EASMC.pdf it describes the reimbursement process very clearly.

Re: Re: OK, I'll Bite

Originally posted by Ken King
Without regard to how you achieved the dollar figure $20.22 is good starting pay.

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Not very good starting pay for people with at least a 4 year degree. And the pay increases are not nearly what you find in other professions.

But that being said, they know those two things when they go into the job.

As far as the 'extra' time. Sure, they don't have to do a lot of the things. But some (grading papers for instance) are needed. What message are we sending to the students when you make it sound like teachers should do the bare minimum to get by? That is one of the biggest problems in America, and it breeds laziness. (or breeds government workers and contractors, whichever comes first)

I personally don't have a problem with the starting salary, but comparing starting and ending salaries, it is quite disturbing.

Re: Re: Re: OK, I'll Bite

Originally posted by SmallTown
Not very good starting pay for people with at least a 4 year degree. And the pay increases are not nearly what you find in other professions.

But that being said, they know those two things when they go into the job.

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Reading their contract it shows they received over 5% increase last year and 4% this year, not too shabby. And that hourly rate is right in line with what a GS-9 would make if they brought that same four-year degree to the government. Additionally, each year they get a step increase and can also increase their salary by achieving greater certification and training. Anyway, I haven’t heard anyone say that teachers don’t deserve more in the terms of salary, I just felt that when you look at what they start with it isn’t bad.

As far as the 'extra' time. Sure, they don't have to do a lot of the things. But some (grading papers for instance) are needed. What message are we sending to the students when you make it sound like teachers should do the bare minimum to get by? That is one of the biggest problems in America, and it breeds laziness. (or breeds government workers and contractors, whichever comes first)

I personally don't have a problem with the starting salary, but comparing starting and ending salaries, it is quite disturbing.

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Extra time, they are given 5 periods a week (secondary schools) for planning (and presumably some of these tasks that you mention). They already work a 7.5 hour day with a .5 hour lunch period so an extra hour here or there shouldn’t hurt too much (it’s a b!tch being salaried), but as you say they knew this going in. What is it that they are griping about during the negotiations? Anyone got any idea what it is the teachers want and what the BOE isn’t giving?

Another Opinion

Being a former school teacher who elected to change careers because of financial and personal reasons, I will say that anyone who hasn't taught school has no clue how much work teaching is. As a teacher I worked those "7.5" hour days, which tended to start at 7:00 am and go until at least 4:00 pm. That was just the time spent physically in the school building. I never went home without work to do in the evening or on the weekend. Now, I work 8 hour days, but spend at least a few minutes checking e-mail and daily headlines everyday. I never bring work home and never work on the weekends. So while I now have technically longer workdays, the actual time spent working is less. I say teachers should work to the rule, if it will result in higher pay for a job that couldn't be more difficult than it already is. Teachers are ones who motivate and spark our children to become leaders. What could be more important?

Re: Another Opinion

Originally posted by Krismom
Being a former school teacher who elected to change careers because of financial and personal reasons, I will say that anyone who hasn't taught school has no clue how much work teaching is.

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I see you changed professions for financial (and personal) reasons, but did you start teaching for the money or some nobler goal?

As to having no clue, get real, many of us not only know or were teachers, but we understand the concepts involved. After all, it isn't brain surgery.

As a teacher I worked those "7.5" hour days, which tended to start at 7:00 am and go until at least 4:00 pm. That was just the time spent physically in the school building. I never went home without work to do in the evening or on the weekend. Now, I work 8 hour days, but spend at least a few minutes checking e-mail and daily headlines everyday. I never bring work home and never work on the weekends. So while I now have technically longer workdays, the actual time spent working is less.

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Teachers aren't the only profession that brings work home; I do it all the time so I can stay ahead of the curve (plus I get some real alone time at home I can't get at work). I take on about every task offered and if I have to take the work home to do it I do. I don't put in for overtime, but it does make it easier to justify OTS cash awards or a QSI, which I have been the recipient of quite a few.

I say teachers should work to the rule, if it will result in higher pay for a job that couldn't be more difficult than it already is. Teachers are ones who motivate and spark our children to become leaders. What could be more important?

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I would say that the teachers should be a motivating factor in the children's lives versus that they "are". From what I have seen lately the quality of the teachers and dedication to the profession isn't what it used to be.

Anyway, is this simply a money battle going on or is there something else that we haven't heard about. If it is money, what is it that the teachers want?

Here's the thing: I feel for teachers - what a mostly thankless, stressful career. Being a teacher is like being in the military - it's a way of life, not just a job. You have to deal with the brass trying to screw you over, then there are the parents getting all jacked up, then finally there are the kids who don't know how to behave.

While teachers DO make fairly decent money, it's not enough for the job they do. Teachers don't sit around all day playing on the Internet. They have to watch how they behave in public. These are the people who are educating our future generation and I don't see how anyone can say that's not worth significantly more money.

Maybe if teachers made the big bucks, you'd get a better class of them in there - low-wage people don't make good educators and some really great teachers have to bail because the money just isn't there.

You hear stories all the time about teachers who start out with stars in their eyes, wanting to grab the tiger by the tail, convinced they'll change kids' lives. Then they just get worn down by the day to day garbage they have to put up with - for less money than they can make in the private sector.

I feel the same way about the military - these guys are paid squat to defend our country. Our priorities are ALL screwed up in this nation.

Perhaps the union should commission a pay equity study from an independent benefits consultant. Then, based on the results, approach the Board of Ed with a plan to bump the salaries and/or benefits, where needed, over a set timeframe.

Trying to accomplish this through a cost of living adjustment (COLA) is bogus.

Picture if you will: Your employer says that half your workers are going to get a 4% COLA right away. Others will get a 2% COLA but won't take effect 'til half-way through the year. Yet others 1% right away & additional 1-2% later. Some will get no COLA at all. Does this make sense? How is it that one's cost of living (change) is different from one's neighbor next door? What is the change in the consumer price index, anyway?

Worse still, the union couldn't have picked a worse time to pull this stuff.....The County is tapped out, the State is in worse shape and, as I understand it, they just revoked a large grant which helped fund the last teacher salary increases. Would it be acceptable to the union (and parents) to kill off a few of the new school additions and renovations underway to pay for the 4% increase?

This whole thing strikes me as ill-advised, poorly planned and child-like in its execution. Maybe the union reps need more planning days in their schedules.

I don't believe there will be any winners in this one, especially not the kids.

I completely support the teachers in their endeavors here. They receive much less gratitude than they deserve. What really bothers me right now is that the county commissioners can fund the building of a new clubhouse at Wicomico Shores (which is a terrible course) and the buy-out of Lacer's contract and the state can pay for a 2% increase for all state workers but teachers cannot receive their raise or a fair Health Care plan. Just terrible.

Dunno why one would want to kill one of the only self-supporting recreational facilities the County operates....As I understand it, only a (relatively) small amount of construction debt service will impact the budget, the rest comes from the enterprise fund (user fees). Killing Nicolet Park (including the skate park) and Chaptico Park would provide the funds you want, if you really have it in for Rec & Parks.

Lacer was released without a buyout...It may end up in court but, as of now, the "buyout" amounted to a few hours of accumulated vacation leave.

The healthcare "issue" is a tempest in a teapot. Nearly everyone is moving away from "Traditional" plans to PPN's and HMO's; the teachers should feel fortunate that they are still afforded this option, if it really means that much to them. The thing is, with the exception of a couple of dentists, nearly every doctor in the area participates in the BC/BS PPN. The overwhelming majority will not see a difference moving from Traditional to PPN (I didn't). The PPN thing is more a fear of the unknown rather than a real issue...And money saved by the Board in healthcare are monies that can go to salaries.

Please. I hope, for our students sake, that the teachers are not using this as an example of how to conduct a reasoned public debate. This is more of a semi-hysterical money grab (deserved or not) that is relying on feelings of goodwill rather than facts. As I stated previously, this should have been handled in a responsible manner, not extortion via COLAs.

Now I wouldn't mind if the teachers made more money if they actually earned what they make now. It's pretty SAD! when you have to pay Sylvan Learning Center to keep your child up to date in the 4TH GRADE! And I know how the system works here I've worked in the schools both as a subsitute teacher and as a volunteer. My daughter spent Pre-K being ahead of the class because I had worked quite hard with her and then Kindergarten with a teacher who teaches by sight word trying to get them started on reading only to advance into a 1st grade classroom that the teacher thinks phonetic spelling is the way to go. 2nd grade was a mad house with a teacher who didn't know her a$$ from a hole in the ground. 3rd grade we transferred to a new school and started Sylvan to get her caught up because of her prior school!( won't mention the name(PHE) ) I had brought all my concerns to her 2nd grade teachers attention but was told to wait until 3rd grade and if she still wasn't "getting it" to talk to someone else. The first thing I did at her new school was Moan and Groan to the school until I got her an IEP meeting. Then she was working with the school reading resources teacher until that year ended. At the beginning of 4th grade I took her to Sylvan to have her tested and she was reading on a 1st grade level! Thank You St. Mary's County! About $10,000 and 6 months later Sylvan had her reading at a 5th grade level and actually excited about reading! So until teachers can earn it I think raises should be out of the question!

I know EXACTLY what you're going through wyld! I threw in the towel and put my kids in private school when I discovered that my kid (who was in 3rd grade at the time) had no idea of what a "vowel" was. On paper he was doing fine, got wonderful grades, but wasn't learning a darn thing. I couldn't believe the crap he brought home with "A's" and smilie faces on them. Public schools are a joke.

Sorry to go a bit , back to our regularly scheduled debate.

I dont' support the work to rule protest either. Yes, teachers have a thankless job and probably due deserve more pay. But when the county and state are strapped, when many workers won't get a step or COLA this year I have no sympathy for their 4% request.

As for the health care issue, they need to get with the times. The State offers it's employees three plans - 80/20 your choice, PPO and HMO. Each one is priced accordingly. Employees pick the plan they want and/or can afford. Of course the 80/20 is the most expensive. If this is what the teachers want let them have it but they will need to pay for it like other employees do.

I would have more respect for their protest if they were asking for more control in the classroom, better discpline in the schools, etc. The money thing doesn't cut it for me.

As for the extra hours they put in, all I can say it welcome to the real world. My husband works 8 to 5 with 1 hour for lunch, plus he is on call every 5th week after hours and every other weekend. The after hours and weekends are comp time that he never has time to us and usually loses. Plus the after hours and weekend hours were ADDED to his job AFTER he was hired when he had put so many years in that it didn't pay to move to another job. I know many people in the private sector who would kill for teacher's hours even with the extra time they claim to put in.

I think that teachers have used up the public's good will by crying about money one too many times. I want to start seeing them do some work and earn their current salary before I give them any more money. The BOE can't be hurting that bad if they can spend over $1 million on their new building plus top of the line furnishings for it.

St. Mary's Teacher's Work To Rule

Well, here's my two cents worth on the "work to rule" issue. I don't agree with either side. This is a complex issue, and as is usually the case, the answer lies somewhere in the middle. Do I think teachers should earn a livable wage? Of course! They are professionals (most of them), and have a direct impact on the future quality of our children's lives. Do I believe teachers live on "starvation wages"? Not a chance! I know many teachers in St. Mary's who live very comfortable lives. In some cases, both husband and wife are teachers, and if tenured, have combined incomes well in excess of $100k/yr. Why is the teacher's job harder today than it used to be? News flash! It's not the $$$$$, but rather the nonsense, bureaucratic waste, parents who need a reality check when it comes to just how their "little angels" behave in class during the day, and just a generally frustrating, defensive, and overly politically correct atmosphere in which teachers are forced to ply their trade. What happened to the respect and admiration that teachers were (and should be) held in? Where's the backup teachers should receive from parents, instead of withholding discipline for fear of parental retaliation, usually because the discipline was never imposed at home to start off with!!! Societal changes have put more burdens on teachers than ever before. You're no longer a teacher, but also surrogate parent! Yes, there's much we should do to support our teachers.
Now the other side................Teachers aren't wealthy, but neither are most working Americans. Not everyone in private industry makes six-figure incomes (although that's what teacher's unions would have you believe). Teachers have the benefit of job security, tenure, guaranteed retirement, and far more holidays and time off than most working adults. Yes, many teachers take work home. So do the rest of us!! By the way, my understanding is that (in some cases), over 90% of the average teaher's health care premiums are paid for, with the teacher's throwing in about 10%. Wish I had it that good!!!! Even if your new contract wouldn't be quite as generous, you still have it better than most of us!. Finally, why is $$$$$$$ the assumed cure-all for all the teacher's ills? More and more money in no way guarantees more successful students. Look north to our bretheren in D.C. One of the most expensive school districts in the nation in terms of per/pupil expenditure and salaries, yet one of the poorer performing. So much for the ...more$$$/better student ratio! And by the way, in case you'all missed it, the nation's in a recession! Unemployment over 6%, & state budgets in deficit (not to mention the ridiculous federal deficits). When's the last time most teachers worried about having a job to go to the next day? Be glad you're in a profession where at least you don't have THAT worry!
Bottom line: Support the teachers, try and eliminate waste and inflated salaries within the upper eschelon of school boards, pay livable salaries, provide proper resources for teachers and students, but remember, you can't "spend" a child into academic success! Doubling a teacher's salary won't give you twice as good a teacher either! And remember, as public employees, you DO enjoy some perks that those of us in private industry never get. But private industry was our choice, just as teaching in public education was yours. Don't expect "public job security and bennies", but also private industry salary potential. Doesn't work that way. And by the way, I have a relative who's college educated in Maryland, just went to work for state social services, and is making no more that mid-20's to start. Somehow, $30k+ for starting teachers doesn't stack up too bad by comparison. Work it out folks, but give the taxpayers a better package to consider than just "pay us more, or we won't work as hard"! Not a great way to make friends and gather supporters.

I have a relative who's college educated in Maryland, just went to work for state social services, and is making no more that mid-20's to start.

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That is just the way things are today. The economy isn't good and in bad times, you cannot expect a raise. Everyone suffers and your relative will not see a raise either for at least the next 2 years, could be longer, so why do the teacher's expect a raise when NOONE in any local government or state job is getting a raise this year?


There just isn't any money in any budget right now, so I feel that since you cannot give to everyone, you don't give to anyone, including teachers.

As a state worker, we have had our steps frozen and no cost of living raise for 2 years. That is just the way it is. You want job security? Well, that is the price one must pay. There are many people without jobs right now.

with work to rule.

1. Last time I checked, no one held a gun to a person's head and MADE them become a teacher. These people walk into this profession knowing exactly what the pay is like & the hours worked.

2. Starting teacher salaries - St. Mary's ranks #5 out of 24 school districts in the state - not too shabby!

3. For Bachelor degreed professionals, St. Mary's ranks in the top 10 in pay for pay scale steps 1-10. For the highest teacher pay range & step, St. Mary ranks 6th in the state.

Over the past four years, St. Mary's teachers have had a 17% increase in their salary...can anyone else out there claim the same??? I sure as hell haven't gotten anywhere close to 17% raise!!!

Teachers have one of the toughest jobs going! I'll freely admit that I could not handle it. However - just like choosing the military as a career - you don't always do it for the money. And if you are looking for huge pay increases just because you are a teacher with a tough job, you'd better start looking for a new career. Economic times are tough and teacher salary isn't going to get much better anytime soon. Live with it...deal with it.

:bandit:

This is a very complicated issue with deep social roots. I'm married to a teacher (and sympathize completley with the previous spouse of a teacher) as well as being a subsitute teacher myself and currently in training to be a teacher. I don't completely support the union for the reasons they have chosen to bring attention to the plight of teachers because I think it seems sort of whiney at a time when a lot of people are having to undergo hardship due to the economy. HOWEVER, unless you have done it, you really can't understand what it is like to be a teacher in America today. My husband works 12 hour days ROUTINELY (plus at least 5 hours on weekends, often more). That's not just during final exams or when there's some sort of crunch. That's the base level (he's an English teacher and the responsible thing for English teachers to do is to assign a lot of reading and writing, which means he in turn has a lot of reading and grading to do). In addition, he has an "extra duty" that for several weeks at a time during the school year require an ADDITIONAL 4-6 hours a day.

Think of it this way. Most good teachers work the hours and have the responsibilities of a CEO, but make the salary of an administrative assistant on one end of the scale and perhaps a middle-manager on the upper end. Sure, you can live on it, we're not starving (though because I work as a sub, we're pretty much paycheck-to-paycheck), we've got good benefits, and all of the work is worth it on one level, but on another it's pretty clear that our society is mainly just insterested in using us then ignoring us when we get too "uppity." No one forces us to do it, but think about what you're saying there. There's a teacher shortage as it is. How many people out there do you know who are willing to work long hours for low pay and no respect? Not to many? So, who's going to get in there and do it? Robots? The otherwise unemployable?

Finally, I mentioned I'm a substitute teacher. Subs aren't part of the union (nor are paraprofessionals either as far as I'm aware--these are the people who work one-on-one all day with students who have severe physical and/or emotional-cognitive disabilities) so our salary hasn't been brought up. Let me just give a heads up: Substitute teachers who have a Bachelors Degree make $60.00/day. If I worked every day for the entire school year, the most I could hope to make is $11,400. I recently did a long-term sub engagement where I completely became an English teacher for 9 weeks. I did *all* planning, instruction and assessment (grading lots and lots of papers), met with parents, the whole shebang. For this I made a whopping $65.00 a day.

Why did I do it? Because I care about education. Because I didn't think the students should suffer because their teacher went on leave. Because I feel a part of the school community where my husband teaches and they were in a bind and really needed me to step up to the plate. Would I do it again? Probably not, not for that pay. People rarely pay any heed to subs, but we are a vital part of the system. Sometimes teachers get sick, have sick kids, get pregnant, you know, have a life, and you can't leave 30 kids alone in a room. You have to have someone there to continue instruction. I enjoy working with adolescents and I know I'm going to get my MA soon, so this is a temporary situation, but I don't really like thinking that I'm being used because of my good will and sense of social responsibility. Yeah, I'll do what I love in service to the community for $11,400/year, but the community should think about why it asks me to.

having not read all the posts because i'm short on time...
how is it that a starting teacher makes roughly the same hourly rate as a starting government rocket scientist?

I'm all for teachers being higher paid. My sister is a teacher and she routinely puts in 12 hour days 3 or 4 days a week, and the normal 8-9 hour days the rest of the time...

But how come someone with a degree in education... which is relatively easier to complete than say a degree in aerospace engineering, is making about the same salary as the aerospace engineer? I guess I make it up by having a higher ending salary.

That being said, I think if teachers were paid better and had more opportunity for pay increase with experience/performance, our best and brightest would choose teaching as a profession, which would result in better teachers. (No slight against teachers here, some of them are damn good, but some of them are damn horrible).

But by offering more opportunity for higher top pay, the education majors need to be made more rigorous to justify having an education major make as much as an aerospace engineer.

Originally posted by sleuth14
But how come someone with a degree in education... which is relatively easier to complete than say a degree in aerospace engineering, is making about the same salary as the aerospace engineer? I guess I make it up by having a higher ending salary.

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Ha! I remember once working through the night on a handful of differential equation problems, then rushing through my mechanics of solids homework before class. As I was finishing, my education-major roommate rolled outta bed, hungover, and tackled his homework ("designed" a bulletin board) in about 15 minutes. If I wasn't so stressed I probably would have cried. :razz2:

Your end-of-career salary comparison is an interesting observation....As most professionals progress through their careers, higher salaries comes with increased responsibilities. When comes down to it (you teachers correct me if I'm wrong), a second year teacher is essentially doing the same job as a twenty-year teacher. Although there appears to be an attempt to steepen the plateau by encouraging advanced degrees, it would seem that the basic job description remains the same. Would a more hierarchal system within the teaching ranks (i.e. elder teacher managing/supervising junior teachers) be of benefit to both kids and teachers? (Or is that the dumbest idea since open-walled classrooms? )