Reversal of an election...

[Larry Gude]

...it is simply amazing watching the GOP agree to overturn an epic election...before even taking office.

Not one single new GOP'er who won barely a month ago, gets to vote on this mess Boehner and McConnell are agreeing to. Obama's not even president anymore having handed over moral authority to Clinton.

Maybe I misunderstood; did folks vote for MORE spending? Did folks vote for MORE of what Obama wants to do, everything else having already failed and leading to the recent election results?

The GOP just gave away the election. Everyone supporting it is doing the exact same thing Bush did on TARP and the UAW bailout and Obama did on the stimulus and auto take over; "Oh, we HAD to do it."

It was and is never going to be easy getting the size, scope and cost of government back under control. However, that is THE problem, what is needed and this is a huge step, a huge further step in the wrong direction.

And there sits the left screaming bloody murder over...the GOP gutting itself. There sits the GOP establishment...celebrating their idea of victory.

If you can't be bothered to write your congress people about this and cc it to Boehner and McConnell, please don't claim to be a conservative anymore.

Please.

 

[ImnoMensa]

...it is simply amazing watching the GOP agree to overturn an epic election...before even taking office.

Not one single new GOP'er who won barely a month ago, gets to vote on this mess Boehner and McConnell are agreeing to. Obama's not even president anymore having handed over moral authority to Clinton.

Maybe I misunderstood; did folks vote for MORE spending? Did folks vote for MORE of what Obama wants to do, everything else having already failed and leading to the recent election results?

The GOP just gave away the election. Everyone supporting it is doing the exact same thing Bush did on TARP and the UAW bailout and Obama did on the stimulus and auto take over; "Oh, we HAD to do it."

It was and is never going to be easy getting the size, scope and cost of government back under control. However, that is THE problem, what is needed and this is a huge step, a huge further step in the wrong direction.

And there sits the left screaming bloody murder over...the GOP gutting itself. There sits the GOP establishment...celebrating their idea of victory.

If you can't be bothered to write your congress people about this and cc it to Boehner and McConnell, please don't claim to be a conservative anymore.

Please.

It aint looking good.

 

[Pushrod]

...it is simply amazing watching the GOP agree to overturn an epic election...before even taking office.

If you can't be bothered to write your congress people about this and cc it to Boehner and McConnell, please don't claim to be a conservative anymore.

Please.

Did you?

The only thing that I can hope for is that this is a ploy by Boehner to destroy the Dems. I'm hoping this deal was cast with the knowledge that it would never be passed by the House as seated right now. He could throw in the spending on increased unemployment bennies because he knew it would not pass due to the poison pill of the extended tax cuts for upper wage earners (not the rich). Maybe Boehner knew that by not passing this bill it would gut the Dems and the Repubs could say "hey, we tried but THEY stopped it!".

Then come January they can put through a sensible bill without the spending and retroactively keeping the Bush tax cuts for all and be the all around heroes.

We can hope, can't we?

 

[PsyOps]

...it is simply amazing watching the GOP agree to overturn an epic election...before even taking office.

Not one single new GOP'er who won barely a month ago, gets to vote on this mess Boehner and McConnell are agreeing to.

Come on Larry, Boehner has worked hard to get where he is and cries about it. Give the guy a break.

 

[awpitt]

...it is simply amazing watching the GOP agree to overturn an epic election...before even taking office.

Not one single new GOP'er who won barely a month ago, gets to vote on this mess Boehner and McConnell are agreeing to. Obama's not even president anymore having handed over moral authority to Clinton.

Maybe I misunderstood; did folks vote for MORE spending? Did folks vote for MORE of what Obama wants to do, everything else having already failed and leading to the recent election results?

The GOP just gave away the election. Everyone supporting it is doing the exact same thing Bush did on TARP and the UAW bailout and Obama did on the stimulus and auto take over; "Oh, we HAD to do it."

It was and is never going to be easy getting the size, scope and cost of government back under control. However, that is THE problem, what is needed and this is a huge step, a huge further step in the wrong direction.

And there sits the left screaming bloody murder over...the GOP gutting itself. There sits the GOP establishment...celebrating their idea of victory.

If you can't be bothered to write your congress people about this and cc it to Boehner and McConnell, please don't claim to be a conservative anymore.

Please.

It's not that one sided.


Obama gave in to Boehner and McConnell as well. This is an equal opportunity mess up.




.

 

[philibusters]

...it is simply amazing watching the GOP agree to overturn an epic election...before even taking office.

Not one single new GOP'er who won barely a month ago, gets to vote on this mess Boehner and McConnell are agreeing to. Obama's not even president anymore having handed over moral authority to Clinton.

Maybe I misunderstood; did folks vote for MORE spending? Did folks vote for MORE of what Obama wants to do, everything else having already failed and leading to the recent election results?

The GOP just gave away the election. Everyone supporting it is doing the exact same thing Bush did on TARP and the UAW bailout and Obama did on the stimulus and auto take over; "Oh, we HAD to do it."

It was and is never going to be easy getting the size, scope and cost of government back under control. However, that is THE problem, what is needed and this is a huge step, a huge further step in the wrong direction.

And there sits the left screaming bloody murder over...the GOP gutting itself. There sits the GOP establishment...celebrating their idea of victory.

If you can't be bothered to write your congress people about this and cc it to Boehner and McConnell, please don't claim to be a conservative anymore.

Please.

No compromise in you Larry. Which is good, but don't complain that teh Dem's don't compromise.

I am less upset than you about the bill and I was against extending the unemployment AND extending the tax cut in the highest tax bracket. I am against the payroll taxes reduction, so the bill is just a loser for me. Yet the compromise did not bother me half as much as it seems to bother you.

I think to you its about principles, to be its about policy. The policies in the bill are not policies that I endorse, but its not personal to me.

I am cynical, but when I see posts like this one, I feel like our political system could be in trouble. People make things about principle, making it personal. That makes compromise impossible. It happens on the right and the left. Larry prides himself on being independent of the the Republican and Democrat label and he is, but he is because he is further to the right than Republicans, which makes compromise between the two parties even less likely.

 

[PsyOps]

No compromise in you Larry. Which is good, but don't complain that teh Dem's don't compromise.

I am less upset than you about the bill and I was against extending the unemployment AND extending the tax cut in the highest tax bracket. I am against the payroll taxes reduction, so the bill is just a loser for me. Yet the compromise did not bother me half as much as it seems to bother you.

I think to you its about principles, to be its about policy. The policies in the bill are not policies that I endorse, but its not personal to me.

I am cynical, but when I see posts like this one, I feel like our political system could be in trouble. People make things about principle, making it personal. That makes compromise impossible. It happens on the right and the left. Larry prides himself on being independent of the the Republican and Democrat label and he is, but he is because he is further to the right than Republicans, which makes compromise between the two parties even less likely.

I interpret this mean that elections don’t count. So it shouldn’t bother you that Obama has broken nearly every promise he was elected to do. Obama had complete autonomy to accomplish anything he wanted. Are you telling me you’re happy about that?

 

[awpitt]

I interpret this mean that elections don’t count. So it shouldn’t bother you that Obama has broken nearly every promise he was elected to do. Obama had complete autonomy to accomplish anything he wanted. Are you telling me you’re happy about that?

He has?

How'd you figure?

There has been compromises and things that have stalled but actual broken promises don't rise to a number that would be considered, "nearly every promise he was elected to do."

 

[philibusters]

I interpret this mean that elections don’t count. So it shouldn’t bother you that Obama has broken nearly every promise he was elected to do. Obama had complete autonomy to accomplish anything he wanted. Are you telling me you’re happy about that?

Just cause you interpret my comments to mean elections don't count doesn't mean that is a reasonable interpretation of my comments. I was bemoaning the lack of bipartisanship and the amount of ideologues in politics. Elections do count--new members of Congress will take their seats fairly shortly. However elections don't make good policy. They elect the people who will make policy. Making good policy means giving lots of thought to policy issues and being willing to compromise in my opinion.

As for your questions. Obama campaigned on extending the Bush tax cuts to all the tax brackets but the highest. He worded it differently, but if you watched the debates he talked about "not raising anybody's taxes, except for people making over $250,000". And he tried to follow through on that plan. It didn't work out and he made his compromise. But as a conservative why are you upset that Obama wasn't able to follow through on his tax plan to extend the Bush Tax cuts to all but the highest tax bracket. For what its worth, he is trying to extend the Bush tax cuts to the other brackets. I don't see where he was lying. He also talked about an economic stimulus and he passed one. I may not have liked the policy, but I don't feel he lied. What did he lie about?

Then you ask me if I am happy that Obama had complete autonomy to accomplish anything he desired. I am not sure what you mean by complete autonomy. Look at healthcare, conservatives are not happy about the plan, but I don't think it accomplished all the goals Obama wanted either. I don't think he had complete autonomy at any time. I for the most part trust Obama, I think he is an intelligent guy with a good policy compass. I just feel like he has not always been good at balancing policy considerations with political expediency. Policy considerations are what I would like to always come first, but that obviously can't ever happen. Great politicians use their political skills to achieve policy goals thought impossible, I don't think Obama has the political skills of the greats like Abraham Lincoln for example.

 

[Gilligan]

At least they are accomplishing a few great things before the lame duck session ends.

*Not*


Obama expected to sign child nutrition bill - Yahoo! Finance

 

[Larry Gude]

No compromise in you Larry. Which is good, but don't complain that teh Dem's don't compromise.

I am less upset than you about the bill and I was against extending the unemployment AND extending the tax cut in the highest tax bracket. I am against the payroll taxes reduction, so the bill is just a loser for me. Yet the compromise did not bother me half as much as it seems to bother you.

I think to you its about principles, to be its about policy. The policies in the bill are not policies that I endorse, but its not personal to me.

I am cynical, but when I see posts like this one, I feel like our political system could be in trouble. People make things about principle, making it personal. That makes compromise impossible. It happens on the right and the left. Larry prides himself on being independent of the the Republican and Democrat label and he is, but he is because he is further to the right than Republicans, which makes compromise between the two parties even less likely.

No, I do not pride myself on being independent of the GOP. If I was indie, I would not get wound up. I am born GOP and have associated myself with the ideas and platforms of the GOP since I was a kid. I can't help that. It is how I self identify, same as I identify as an American, of German decent, white, male, Redskin fan (though that is dying in me) hater of Flock of Seagulls and so forth.

The GOP only won back power due to disgust with the spending and the various and sundry ways Obama has not delivered on his own promises. The GOP only lost power because Bush was such a terrible failure. He only failed because he followed the same path Obama is following; more government, more spending, one world government.

Hell, I hold NO grudge against our leftists for fighting for what they want. By and larger, Obama has been far truer to them than Bush was to the Right and that is what gets my dander up; our nation is failing because of Bush and Obama and incessant growth of government and ever growing dependency of the people on the government.

If we need more, way more, personal responsibility, and we do, then less of it is NOT a good compromise, at all. If we need less spending, and we do, more is not a good compromise.

Compromise now should be; do we cut spending by 5 or 10%? Or 10-20%? Not add to it.

Compromise should be do we cut the top rate to 30% or 25%, not leave it as is.

I am more than willing to compromise on how we fix things. I am not willing to compromise on how much worse do we make things.

 

[PsyOps]

He has?

How'd you figure?

There has been compromises and things that have stalled but actual broken promises don't rise to a number that would be considered, "nearly every promise he was elected to do."

If you do the math he overwhelmingly did not meet his promises by 380 to 123. I'm not sure where my math is wrong. Considering the power base he had I don't buy "In the works" or "Stall" or even "Compromised" as meeting his promises. He has had 2 years to do EVERYTHING he wanted to do; there was no need for compromise, stalling, or anything to be left "In the works". Democrats quite simply didn't get the work done. And I would like to see a list of all these "things" (what is it... 503 of them?) graphed out here. All the democrats and Obama did was complain about Bush and the GOP.

Neither here nor there, the things he did do are very unpopular, hence the results of our last election. I think this speaks volumes as to the failure he is.

 

[Gilligan]

I am more than willing to compromise on how we fix things. I am not willing to compromise on how much worse do we make things.

Good quote, that... Sums it up for me too. All the talking heads are talking about 'compromise here' and 'compromises there'...and I can only shake my head when I see the results. It's the countries future they are compromising.

 

[PsyOps]

Then you ask me if I am happy that Obama had complete autonomy to accomplish anything he desired. I am not sure what you mean by complete autonomy. Look at healthcare, conservatives are not happy about the plan, but I don't think it accomplished all the goals Obama wanted either. I don't think he had complete autonomy at any time. I for the most part trust Obama, I think he is an intelligent guy with a good policy compass. I just feel like he has not always been good at balancing policy considerations with political expediency. Policy considerations are what I would like to always come first, but that obviously can't ever happen. Great politicians use their political skills to achieve policy goals thought impossible, I don't think Obama has the political skills of the greats like Abraham Lincoln for example.

This is a joke right? Democrats had the house, senate and WH and could have passed EVERYTHING they said they were going to do within the first 2 months. THAT’S autonomy. I’m baffled that they didn’t. I’m glad they didn’t but still baffled.

But, you’re right… Obama does not have the skills to get things done. He lacks the leadership of a Lincoln or Reagan. In fact he lacks on nearly every level. It seems a lot of people were talking about this before he was elected and Americans weren’t listening. Did you vote for him? Were you listening? Are you suffering from voter’s remorse?

 

[philibusters]

This is a joke right? Democrats had the house, senate and WH and could have passed EVERYTHING they said they were going to do within the first 2 months. THAT’S autonomy. I’m baffled that they didn’t. I’m glad they didn’t but still baffled.

But, you’re right… Obama does not have the skills to get things done. He lacks the leadership of a Lincoln or Reagan. In fact he lacks on nearly every level. It seems a lot of people were talking about this before he was elected and Americans weren’t listening. Did you vote for him? Were you listening? Are you suffering from voter’s remorse?

I voted for Obama, have said so in other threads. I like McCain well enough though. I don't have regrets about voting for Obama. I don't think he has done a good job, but whoever was elected was going to have a tough jobs. I like sports, so I use sports analogy, but its the equivilant of taking over a college football team that has finished 3-9 the year. Its hard to build a winner at a traditional losing program and I am not sure Obama has proven he was up to the task yet. So if I could redo I would give McCain even more consideration as he is a good guy, but I am not crying over Obama like conservatives like to imagine liberals doing---I knew going in it was not going to be a easy job with instant success.

 

[Larry Gude]

Obama does not have the skills to get things done. ?

Why do we keep saying that? It is demonstrably not true.

He took over GM

He eviscerated contract law with Chrysler

He did a stimulus bill that, to this day, most people have no clue what it is, where it goes or much of anything about it

He did Obamacare. It is law. At least for now and he did it against a huge majority national outcry in opposition.

He just bent John Boehner and Mitch McConnell (and the rest of us) over the barrel once more and had his way.

Not get things done? Were it only so.

 

[Larry Gude]

I voted for Obama, have said so in other threads. I like McCain well enough though. I don't have regrets about voting for Obama. I don't think he has done a good job, but whoever was elected was going to have a tough jobs. I like sports, so I use sports analogy, but its the equivilant of taking over a college football team that has finished 3-9 the year. Its hard to build a winner at a traditional losing program and I am not sure Obama has proven he was up to the task yet. So if I could redo I would give McCain even more consideration as he is a good guy, but I am not crying over Obama like conservatives like to imagine liberals doing---I knew going in it was not going to be a easy job with instant success.

That is only true if Obama kept doing the things that got us into trouble to begin with. Which he did. Obama, in substance, has simply continued the Bush policies...which did not work.

Bush did nothing conservative. Not on the economy. Not internationally. Not on energy. Nothing. He was a pretty good president if you like left of center policy. Obama, obviously, has no interest in conservative policy.

Be nice to at least try it for four years.

For once.

 

[PsyOps]

I voted for Obama, have said so in other threads. I like McCain well enough though. I don't have regrets about voting for Obama. I don't think he has done a good job, but whoever was elected was going to have a tough jobs. I like sports, so I use sports analogy, but its the equivilant of taking over a college football team that has finished 3-9 the year. Its hard to build a winner at a traditional losing program and I am not sure Obama has proven he was up to the task yet. So if I could redo I would give McCain even more consideration as he is a good guy, but I am not crying over Obama like conservatives like to imagine liberals doing---I knew going in it was not going to be a easy job with instant success.

What would have made you more satisfied with Obama? What did he do wrong in your eyes that makes you say you’d have a redo with McCain? Where did Obama fail you?

 

[philibusters]

What would have made you more satisfied with Obama? What did he do wrong in your eyes that makes you say you’d have a redo with McCain? Where did Obama fail you?

I probably shouldn't have used to word redo. I meant if I went back in time to 2008 for totally unrelated reasons I would give McCain more consideratio, NOT that I really wanted a redo.

Obama hasn't done anything wrong, I just have policy differences. For example I was not a huge fan of the stimulus especially in hindsight, but I was torn at the time.

I don't mind the healthcare bill insuring more people, but wish it would have done more to make healthcare more efficient, thereby lowering costs. I think for example Obama realized that--he talked about it in his speeches, but he gave them up to get more people covered. He compromised with the healthcare establishment--I won't change the system radically if I can get these new people covered under the system. To be good reform you needed at a minimum to make real strides towards getting the system more efficient like making the market freer, letting companies sell policies across state line, ending how employers subsidize the middle class through offering health insurance and providing incentives for the health care industry to be more efficient.

Then I disagree with things like continuing to extend unemployment, lower the tax rate for the highest tax bracket, reducing the employee contribution to social security. He should be working to increase revenue while eliminate expenses, all of those do the opposite.

But Obama has done nothing wrong, just emphasized different policies goals then I would. The stimulus had a lot of policy goals, so was to pump money into the economy and save jobs in the short term--legitimate policy goal, but not worth the cost to me. Then the stimulus had green initiatives--again legitimate policy goal, but not worth the cost to me.

The health care added people who will have access to health insurance. Very worthy policy goal--but I believe it needed to be done at the same time as we improved health care efficiency.


So its not like I think hes been irrational,he just does things differently than I would if I was dictator (not that he is a dictator so its an unfair comparison because if President, my policy goals would go down the drain as I politically could not get them trhough too).

 

[MMDad]

He has?

How'd you figure?

There has been compromises and things that have stalled but actual broken promises don't rise to a number that would be considered, "nearly every promise he was elected to do."

Look at the ones that were the "big ticket" items.

Gitmo - still open.
No taxes for anyone under $250K - broken.
No extension of Bush tax cuts for the wealthy - broken.
Not repeating the "failed economic policies of the Bush administration." Not only did he repeat them, he doubled down.
Out of Iraq - still there.
Out of Afghanistan - still there.
No closed door meetings on healthcare - broken.
No lobbyists - broken.

So he kept some minor ones and broke the big ones. Do you really consider that a success?