64 dollar question ....

[EmptyTimCup]

listening WMAL on the way in this AM.

Grandy and Brian were talking to Caroline Glick about her latest piece ....

Our World: Clueless in Washington

Does the US fail to understand what will happen to its strategic interests in the region if the Muslim Brotherhood is the power behind the throne of the next regime?


Certainly it is true that the regime is populated by old men. Mubarak is 82 years old. It is also true that his regime is corrupt and tyrannical. Since the Muslim Brotherhood spinoff Islamic Jihad terror group murdered Mubarak’s predecessor president Anwar Sadat in 1981, Egypt has been governed by emergency laws that ban democratic freedoms. Mubarak has consistently rejected US pressure to ease regime repression and enact liberal reforms in governance.

This reality has led many American commentators across the political spectrum to side enthusiastically with the rioters. A prestigious working group on Egypt formed in recent months by Middle East experts from Left and Right issued a statement over the weekend calling for the Obama administration to dump Mubarak and withdraw its support for the Egyptian regime. It recommended further that the administration force Mubarak to abdicate and his regime to fall by suspending all economic and military assistance to Egypt for the duration.

The blue ribbon panel’s recommendations were applauded by its members’ many friends across the political spectrum. For instance, the conservative Weekly Standard’s editor William Kristol praised the panel on Sunday and wrote, “It’s time for the US government to take an active role… to bring about a South Korea/Philippines/Chile-like transition in Egypt, from an American-supported dictatorship to an American-supported and popularly legitimate liberal democracy.”

Caroline basically said the world can no longer expect the USA to stand beside its allies, because Obama and Hillary thru President Hosni Mubarak under the bus so fast for some play on CNN.

they the Muslim Brotherhood was behind the riots, and has seen this as an opportunity (Obama in power, weak and bowing to everyone) to take over after what happened in Tunisia ...


that it is better to support the devil you know, then let the alternative in ....



as we have seen, when given free elections, Middle Eastern People do not adopt western style freedoms and democracy .... they elect Hamas and Hezbollah ....

When, due to US pressure, the Palestinians were given the opportunity to vote in open and free elections in 2006, they voted for Hamas and its totalitarian agenda. When due to US pressure, the Egyptians were given limited freedom to choose their legislators in 2005, where they could they elected the totalitarian Muslim Brotherhood to lead them.

so the question is;

do we keep the tyrant in power and support tyrants (remember what happened in Iran, the Shah got tossed and we got an Ayatollah and Muslim Fundies) or are we the beacon of freedom and let whoever gets in power, have power at our own detriment ... but at least we can sleep at night and look ourselves in the mirror in the morning shaving, knowing we are not in bed with the devil ....

According to a Pew opinion survey of Egyptians from June 2010, 59 percent said they back Islamists. Only 27% said they back modernizers. Half of Egyptians support Hamas. Thirty percent support Hizbullah and 20% support al Qaida. Moreover, 95% of them would welcome Islamic influence over their politics. When this preference is translated into actual government policy, it is clear that the Islam they support is the al Qaida Salafist version.

Eighty two percent of Egyptians support executing adulterers by stoning, 77% support whipping and cutting the hands off thieves. 84% support executing any Muslim who changes his religion.

When given the opportunity, the crowds on the street are not shy about showing what motivates them. They attack Mubarak and his new Vice President Omar Suleiman as American puppets and Zionist agents. The US, protesters told CNN’s Nick Robertson, is controlled by Israel. They hate and want to destroy Israel. That is why they hate Mubarak and Suleiman.

 

[Matthew]

Well now that we have our own Neville Chamberlain, who's the devil now ?

We are damned if we do, damned if we don't because like many other things, this has been in the making for decades and I fear that the era of "easy fix" is extinct.

Who is responsible ? Definitely both parties because we have abrogated responsibility to people that have abused it.

However the ultimate blame goes to an apathetic American electorate who has chosen to be just that, #####ing about things, but never doing anything about it:just delegating power to even more abusers of the system.

The fallacy view of the LSMMSM outlook of the Tea Party is that it is right wing fueled.
What they refuse to see is that it is a grass roots organization that refutes BOTH parties and demands accountability all around. It is easier to believe in myths than accept reality .

There is an old Chinese curse that states"May you be born in interesting times"

I think many of us here were born at or near mid 20th Century. We have seen changes in technology that even has left Science fiction speechless, We have seen wars and revolutions (some of us have even fought in them)
that maintain we are still far from an evolved species.

If I am fortunate to make it to 2050 (I would be 100) I wonder if I will look at it and just think:
" The more it changes. the more it remains the same".

The birth pangs are still in progress

 

[aps45819]

so the question is;

do we keep the tyrant in power and support tyrants (remember what happened in Iran, the Shah got tossed and we got an Ayatollah and Muslim Fundies) or are we the beacon of freedom and let whoever gets in power, have power at our own detriment ... but at least we can sleep at night and look ourselves in the mirror in the morning shaving, knowing we are not in bed with the devil ....

It has been U.S. policy to support tyrants to our own detriment

 

[EmptyTimCup]

whatever happens we are ####ed .....

do you support the dictator who you know has secret police that torture people, or support elections where you know Egyptians will elect Muslim Brotherhood Fundies to power who will torture oppress women, and torture people who's beards are not long enough, so thereby they are not Islamic enough

Muslim Brotherhood Fanitics in M1's


I think someone posted elsewhere, we may get to see how M1's match with Merkava's

 

[Larry Gude]

The US serves the cause of freedom far better by being American's first and foremost. That means minding our own business and going about the peaceful pursuit of living our lives including global trade.

When we do that, we are, in the words of Reagan, a shining city on the hill, a beacon of light.

When we support dictators, compromise our principles for convenience, then, we're just another one of histories countries that didn't mean what it said.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

When we support dictators, compromise our principles for convenience, then, we're just another one of histories countries that didn't mean what it said.

pick a side Larry

so we let chips fall where they may, oil may sell @ 500 bbl .... or be extremely hard to get because the suez canel gets shut down by the MB and the Iranians see an oppertunity and shut down the Straights of Hormuz ... selling to anyone but the West ....

and we are stuck because The Messiah will not open up ANWAR ....

 

[Matthew]

whatever happens we are ####ed .....

do you support the dictator who you know has secret police that torture people, or support elections where you know Egyptians will elect Muslim Brotherhood Fundies to power who will torture oppress women, and torture people who's beards are not long enough, so thereby they are not Islamic enough

Muslim Brotherhood Fanitics in M1's


I think someone posted elsewhere, we may get to see how M1's match with Merkava's

That would be interesting. However, how about M1s vs like facsimile M1s ?
The Chinese have an MBT that looks awfully like our Abrams, but giving their theft of our technology and improved on by their own skills may be better ?
The carrier groups, once demonstrations of the reach of our strength, are now menaced by carrier busting missiles or diesel submarines that have rendered our sonar systems near defunct.
Or even worse, an immense army , uniformed like our own, which is no surprise, since the Chinese now manufacture a good part of our military sundry needs.

We maintain an edge, but that window keeps shrinking.

 

[migtig]

I don't agree with either choice in the poll.

I think there was a time when America stood for Freedom, no matter what. However, after WWII, the goals and hope of freedom and all those messages, they got lost.

The country of America now supports whomever/wherever on whims, economic trends, business ties, oil, and UN (other countries) peer pressure.

The good old US of A doesn't give a crap about freedom (look at our country lately) it's all about what they (the politicos) are getting out of a back scratching deal.

If you think otherwise, then you haven't looked at our country's borders, nor have you payed attention to the world news and history for the last 60 years.

When was the last time the US military was the good guy in a war/conflict/police action/peace keeping mission?

When was the last time the US military's involvement in any of the above resulted in winning friends and actually changing the landscape and political climate of a country?

 

[EmptyTimCup]

We maintain an edge, but that window keeps shrinking.

I was referring to Egyptian M1's not the US Fighting




but yeah, how many Defense Programs just got canceled because Socialists / Lefties are trying to keep their social programs afloat

 

[ImnoMensa]

That would be interesting. However, how about M1s vs like facsimile M1s ?
The Chinese have an MBT that looks awfully like our Abrams, but giving their theft of our technology and improved on by their own skills may be better ?
The carrier groups, once demonstrations of the reach of our strength, are now menaced by carrier busting missiles or diesel submarines that have rendered our sonar systems near defunct.
Or even worse, an immense army , uniformed like our own, which is no surprise, since the Chinese now manufacture a good part of our military sundry needs.

We maintain an edge, but that window keeps shrinking.

I think the Egyptians just jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire.

I think a lot of people will be sorry later for the things they are doing today, but it will be too late.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what they do. A lot of people are going to die in the coming war against Israel.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

Peres: 'Democracy is not only about elections'


"Democracy can not start and end in elections only," Peres said. "True democracy begins on the day after the elections, in granting human rights and concern for citizens' welfare.

"If a religious extremist dictatorship rises the day after democratic elections, what are democratic elections worth?" Peres asked.

He added that Iran is working to "bring a religious extremist hegemony to the Middle East. The Iranian problem and international terror," Peres explained, "is not an Israeli monopoly, but an international problem."

 

[EmptyTimCup]

When was the last time the US military was the good guy in a war/conflict/police action/peace keeping mission?

When was the last time the US military's involvement in any of the above resulted in winning friends and actually changing the landscape and political climate of a country?

the Iraqis were happy we kicked out Saddam, but dismayed, like that family member that shows up for dinner and never leaves, we stuck around ....


we should have popped Saddam and ....

"Exit Stage Right" .... GTFO ... No further nation building, trying to set up anew gobberment ...... just GTFO

 

[Matthew]

I was referring to Egyptian M1's not the US Fighting




but yeah, how many Defense Programs just got canceled because Socialists / Lefties are trying to keep their social programs afloat

Tp quote my fav Pol:
"You betcha"

I agree with you that we are at worst arming our enemies, and it would behoove us to be hit with our own.
Some of the bombs that sunk the PacFleet's battle wagons at Pearl, were manufactured from scrap metal we sold to the Japanese prior to the embargo that said Japanese used as an excuse to provoke undeclared war on us.
I brought up the Chinese because like the Muslim fanatics, sooner or later, we are going to butt heads, and I would rather like to be holding a little bit , if not a whole lot, of advantage when that happens.
Trying to fight with one hand is no fight at all, but a request for an a**whipping.

 

[Larry Gude]

pick a side Larry

so we let chips fall where they may, oil may sell @ 500 bbl .... or be extremely hard to get because the suez canel gets shut down by the MB and the Iranians see an oppertunity and shut down the Straights of Hormuz ... selling to anyone but the West ....

and we are stuck because The Messiah will not open up ANWAR ....

Not a problem. I choose the US.

Our engagement in Korea, Vietnam, the gulf and now A'stan has been catastrophic for OUR nation. OUR economy. Instead of fears of $50 oil, we get $100 by doing 'something'. South Korea displaces US producers on all sorts of goods. Clinton opened up trade with Vietnam. For what?

I choose the US. Had Bush taken over Iraq and taken control of the region that, at least, a la WWII, is victory and serves our national interests.

I choose the US.

:shrug:

 

[Larry Gude]

the Iraqis were happy we kicked out Saddam, but dismayed,

Not all Iraqi's. Not even close.

Iran is, however, ecstatic about it.

 

[EmptyTimCup]

I choose the US.

:shrug:

ok so you would support Mubark, to keep the peace in the Region because it supports our interests


more of this foreign entanglement stuff the founders warned about

 

[EmptyTimCup]

here is what happens when you have Fundies involved in politics

 

[Larry Gude]

ok so you would support Mubark, to keep the peace in the Region because it supports our interests


more of this foreign entanglement stuff the founders warned about

What does that mean, support Mubarak?

I guess it's amusing to some to pursue US national interests because it certainly isn't amusing to see us keep doing certain things, yield poor results and propose to continue to do the same thing while expecting better results.

Or, is it?

 

[EmptyTimCup]

What does that mean, support Mubarak?

you stated you would Choose the US in all things

....... but never rally expanded on if you would choose to get involved around the world, where it server US Interests, although you did site some examples where our involvement did not end well ....

 

[Larry Gude]

you stated you would Choose the US in all things

....... but never rally expanded on if you would choose to get involved around the world, where it server US Interests, although you did site some examples where our involvement did not end well ....

Here it where I have one of my many problems; I've been operating under the assumption that is obvious that our activities in the Middle East have been really, really bad for out national interests.

And I have also assumed that what one might call the Reagan doctrine that, by minding our business, and, by extension, staying out of others, we lead in the best possible way; by being Americans.

Now, to clarify what I mean by 'being American' you can pretty much look at the Reagan years as a blueprint.

Of course, I am assuming, again, that the Reagan years are pretty easy to understand and obvious as to what they were in terms of focusing our business inwards.