Speed Cameras Ready To Take Your Money?

royhobie

hobieflyer
Below, WUSA TV reported on speed cameras that Maryland loves so much. Of course they love the red light cameras as well. But, you'll love this story about the speed cameras. It shows the cameras are there for one purpose and one purpose only. To grab YOUR money. Red light cameras will be in St. Mary's eventually. I have no doubt about it. However, the County Commissioners have to approve it. If you don't like these type of cameras, you better make sure your Commissoners know it. All they are going to see is the dollar signs it brings in. But, if enough of our citizens stop it before it gets started, we have a chance. Charles Co. has it. And now I understand Calvert Co. has it. Who do you think is next? It sure seems like it is headed our way! It looks like we are on borrowed time.

Maybe we can flood the County Commisoners meetings with people like the Board of Education does every year for the budget.







FOREST HEIGHTS, Md. (WUSA) -- Will Foreman gets angry when someone tells him he has developed a system for beating the town's speed cameras. Instead, he says, he has come up with a simple, math-based system to prove those cameras are issuing tickets to drivers who are not breaking the speed limit at all.

"I'm furious. They're hard-working, working-class people here and they are being victimized by this group," he told 9News Now.

After threatening to fire employees of his auto parts business who kept getting the tickets, Foreman began to investigate 40 tickets received by those drivers.

Not one was legitimate, he says.

When the speeding tickets are issued, they are accompanied by two pictures of the vehicle taken less than a second apart.

Foreman simply charts the number of feet the vehicle travels between the two photographs and makes the miles-per-hour calculation.

In every case he has used the math to prove his point in court, his drivers have been found not guilty.

"It's either theft, total gross incompetence, or extortion with a badge," he said.

"The issue is theft. They're stealing from the public...they're charging people for speeding that are not speeding," Foreman said.

The tickets generate revenue equal to about one half of the town's annual budget, bringing it about Two-point-eight million dollars a year.

Because the town has a population of about 26 hundred residents, the math shows income of more than a thousand dollars a year from the speeding tickets for each resident.

Town officials did not respond to 9News Now requests for interviews, but the town administrator said he believes the tickets are accurate.
 

acommondisaster

Active Member
Does Foreman figure in the number of people who commute via 210 each day in his math?

I've driven through DC (traffic camera hell) for more than 20 years and I've had 1 camera ticket. It's kind of a case of learn where the cameras are and stop at those lights when they turn yellow, rather than speeding up to make it through when they're about to go red. The camera at Stanton Road/Suitland Pkwy records (and tickets) speed as well as light violation. (I know this personally).

I'm curious if the one Foreman fights tickets for does the same. I don't know that his success rate fighting these tickets really means anything other than he takes the time to fight the sort of ticket that normally gets thrown out if it's contested. /shrug
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Foreman is fighting the speed cameras, not the red light cameras. By MD law, speed cameras are only authorized in school zones. But, as always when theres a buck to be made, theres a game to be played. See, MD law also says that school zones may be placed within 1/2 mile of a school. There is no verbiage to define a school zone beyond that. And there lies the rub.

See, sometimes, you get lucky and your school really lies on a main thoroughfare. Take Leonardtown High, or GMHS. Shazamm, major arteries, easy money. Of course, the zones as they exist are small, in the case on GMHS, no more than a few hundred feet from the entrance. And the speed limit is the same as the rest of the road. Quite often whats happening is that they will take the zone out to the legal distance limit, in this case, almost to Mkays and and the Fairlead Academy on the other.and drop the speed limit by 5mph or 10mph.

Same for Park Hall Elementary. Zone is only about 300 feet from the driveway, and the speed limit is the same, expect that to expand out and drop the speed limit down. Maximizes profit. Now, you ready for the tricky part? Heres where it gets fun.

Where is absolute max traffic in St Marys? 235, of course. But, sadly, the only school that is really on it is Spring Ridge Middle, and its not really on the moneymaker, north of Gate 1. Ah, but remember that 1/2 mile thing? You could place cameras on 235 from the southern entrance to Wal-Mart all the way to Buck Hewitt, using the 1/2 mile from Esperanza and Green Holly.

Now your talking real money, especially if you drop the 45 through there down to say 40, and use 11mph over as the trigger. Folks going 51 would be filling your coffers all day.

I have already started cataloging existing speed limits and zones, in preparation for this:) Luckily, the SHS places date stickers on the back or road signs when they install them:evil:
 

glhs837

Power with Control

I find it funny that the nearest story about these cameras being proven inaccurate is one Google search away, but the reporter doesn't bother, why actually research your story, when its easier to just regurgitate the given "facts".

Beach Elementary School, Old Bayside Road, Chesapeake Beach, MD - Google Maps

So, watch what happens. Right now, Google street View shows the existing signs for the school zone there to be right at what looks to be staff parking maybe.....wait, I need some help here....anyone that lives in Chesapeake Beach?

Looks to me like the actual bus entrance, where the danger would be, thats not even on 261, but on Old Bayside Road. If its for the kids, why not put the cams where the kids are? Money, of course:whistle:
 

Natron0915

Active Member
Help me understand

I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't get why people get so upset by red-light and speed cameras. Yes, I get the inaacuracies pointed out in the article, but I suspect those instances are the exception rather than the rule.

So what if they generate $$$ for whatever agency is collecting, you're not going to get fined if you follow the law. And before anyone gets high and mighty, yes I do occasionally speed, but I make every effort not to push it at the red lights as I'm fearful of causing an accident.

Bottom line is, in my mind, if you don't speed/run red lights, then you don't have to worry about the cameras.

I have gotten one speeding ticket in the last two years, and none before that, but all that means is that I was lucky, and didn't get caught all those other times.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't get why people get so upset by red-light and speed cameras. Yes, I get the inaacuracies pointed out in the article, but I suspect those instances are the exception rather than the rule.

So what if they generate $$$ for whatever agency is collecting, you're not going to get fined if you follow the law. And before anyone gets high and mighty, yes I do occasionally speed, but I make every effort not to push it at the red lights as I'm fearful of causing an accident.

Bottom line is, in my mind, if you don't speed/run red lights, then you don't have to worry about the cameras.

I have gotten one speeding ticket in the last two years, and none before that, but all that means is that I was lucky, and didn't get caught all those other times.

And based on a lot of articles I have read over the years, I suspect the opposite to be true. There are far too many cases of errors and outright fraud. Making enforcing the law a for-profit concern makes too damn tempting to rig the odds, especially when you have the folks who write the laws dependent upon the money you bring in.

Do a little reading here, then come back and tell me how you feel.

Maryland Speed Cameras

Systems the endemically misreport speed, municipalities who jigger school zones for money, required independent calibrations blown off, towns and counties ignoring FOIA requests, its all there. And thats just MD, when you national, the pattern of carpetbagging camera companies moving from state to state like high tech Travellers, shining the politicians on with large checks, unitl the populace votes the damnthings out, then moving on.

All Items about Privacy Issues

There is supposed to be an officer review every ticket for accuracy....

Md. town refunds speed camera tickets | Hayley Peterson | Nation | Washington Examiner

Baltimore had a bunch of tickets issued over two months signed by an officer who had died in a car crash, so how far can you trust that "oversight", especially when the reviewing officers salary is usually paid for out of the profits from the cameras.
 

UNA

New Member
Wirelessly posted

Natron0915 said:
I guess I'm in the minority, but I don't get why people get so upset by red-light and speed cameras. Yes, I get the inaacuracies pointed out in the article, but I suspect those instances are the exception rather than the rule.

So what if they generate $$$ for whatever agency is collecting, you're not going to get fined if you follow the law. And before anyone gets high and mighty, yes I do occasionally speed, but I make every effort not to push it at the red lights as I'm fearful of causing an accident.

Bottom line is, in my mind, if you don't speed/run red lights, then you don't have to worry about the cameras.

I have gotten one speeding ticket in the last two years, and none before that, but all that means is that I was lucky, and didn't get caught all those other times.

Well said! :smile:
 

Natron0915

Active Member
And based on a lot of articles I have read over the years, I suspect the opposite to be true. There are far too many cases of errors and outright fraud. Making enforcing the law a for-profit concern makes too damn tempting to rig the odds, especially when you have the folks who write the laws dependent upon the money you bring in.

Do a little reading here, then come back and tell me how you feel.

Maryland Speed Cameras

Systems the endemically misreport speed, municipalities who jigger school zones for money, required independent calibrations blown off, towns and counties ignoring FOIA requests, its all there. And thats just MD, when you national, the pattern of carpetbagging camera companies moving from state to state like high tech Travellers, shining the politicians on with large checks, unitl the populace votes the damnthings out, then moving on.

All Items about Privacy Issues

There is supposed to be an officer review every ticket for accuracy....

Md. town refunds speed camera tickets | Hayley Peterson | Nation | Washington Examiner

Baltimore had a bunch of tickets issued over two months signed by an officer who had died in a car crash, so how far can you trust that "oversight", especially when the reviewing officers salary is usually paid for out of the profits from the cameras.

Ok, fair enough. If you dig deep enough, you could find abuse of power and/or corruption in anything. People speed, people run red lights, they're not supposed to do either one of them but they still do. If you get caught, shame on you I guess. If you want to fight it, then that's your right. You might win, you might lose. Roll the dice and take your chance.

You still haven't told me why this is such a big deal. How many of us ask to see the radar readout that said we were going 39 in a 30 mph zone (what I got a ticket for). Not many I think.

Maybe, just maybe, the revenue generated from these speed traps keeps my taxes from going up a 1/10th of mil or so. SWEET!!

I have enough faith in our justice system (I know, I know, wth am I thinking?) that the wrongs will usually be righted and your links pretty much provided evidence of this faith.

Complaining about these cameras is, to me, just another reason for people to whine about getting caught doing what they shouldn't be..

And oh yeah, you have a right to your opinion as much as I do...keeps it a fun debate.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
An officer has very little reason to lie about me speeding, and the great majority of officers signed up to do right and make a difference for good in the world, so yes, I trust them. Only once have I asked to see a radar, becuase I knoew I was going at least 8-10 less than the officer (a DOD officer on NAS Brunswick, ME) said. Oddly enough, he then gave a qucik verbal and let me go.

But these things are not about making things better, the motivation isn't about doing good, its about making money. When I do get caught speeding, I dont complain, I pay up. I chose to speed, I choose to pay the fine, no sweat.

Business owner casts reasonable doubt on accuracy of speed cameras - Washington Times

Did you read that article about that started all this? Two men proved the camera system in question systematically measures speed wrong. Not an aberration, just always wrong. Judge should have thrown the whole out. Why didnt he at least order an investigation? I think we both know why.

I know very few poeple who trust large coporations to do the right thing, why would you trust these camera companies? Heres why you shouldnt......

Mr. Foreman’s tickets were all issued in Forest Heights, a town of about 2,600 where officials expected $2.9 million in ticket revenue this fiscal year, about half the town’s $5.8 million budget.

Do you think any politician wants to half his budget?
 

Natron0915

Active Member
An officer has very little reason to lie about me speeding, and the great majority of officers signed up to do right and make a difference for good in the world, so yes, I trust them. Only once have I asked to see a radar, becuase I knoew I was going at least 8-10 less than the officer (a DOD officer on NAS Brunswick, ME) said. Oddly enough, he then gave a qucik verbal and let me go.

But these things are not about making things better, the motivation isn't about doing good, its about making money. When I do get caught speeding, I dont complain, I pay up. I chose to speed, I choose to pay the fine, no sweat.

Business owner casts reasonable doubt on accuracy of speed cameras - Washington Times

Did you read that article about that started all this? Two men proved the camera system in question systematically measures speed wrong. Not an aberration, just always wrong. Judge should have thrown the whole out. Why didnt he at least order an investigation? I think we both know why.

I know very few poeple who trust large coporations to do the right thing, why would you trust these camera companies? Heres why you shouldnt......

Do you think any politician wants to half his budget?

Sorry, I'm not now, and never will be, convinced that there is a vast conspiracy of traffic cameras whose only purpose is to seperate me from my hard earned money...(the governemnt already has that part covered)...

I too believe that most police are honest, hardworking people, but I also believe that most corporations try and do the right thing (for their stakeholders).

This is a cause you feel is worth fighting for, good for you...I reserve my right to disagree and say there are bigger issues to worry about. I have enjoyed the discussion though...:buddies:
 

royhobie

hobieflyer
Foreman is fighting the speed cameras, not the red light cameras. By MD law, speed cameras are only authorized in school zones. But, as always when theres a buck to be made, theres a game to be played. See, MD law also says that school zones may be placed within 1/2 mile of a school. There is no verbiage to define a school zone beyond that. And there lies the rub.

See, sometimes, you get lucky and your school really lies on a main thoroughfare. Take Leonardtown High, or GMHS. Shazamm, major arteries, easy money. Of course, the zones as they exist are small, in the case on GMHS, no more than a few hundred feet from the entrance. And the speed limit is the same as the rest of the road. Quite often whats happening is that they will take the zone out to the legal distance limit, in this case, almost to Mkays and and the Fairlead Academy on the other.and drop the speed limit by 5mph or 10mph.

\
Same for Park Hall Elementary. Zone is only about 300 feet from the driveway, and the speed limit is the same, expect that to expand out and drop the speed limit down. Maximizes profit. Now, you ready for the tricky part? Heres where it gets fun.

Where is absolute max traffic in St Marys? 235, of course. But, sadly, the only school that is really on it is Spring Ridge Middle, and its not really on the moneymaker, north of Gate 1. Ah, but remember that 1/2 mile thing? You could place cameras on 235 from the southern entrance to Wal-Mart all the way to Buck Hewitt, using the 1/2 mile from Esperanza and Green Holly.

Now your talking real money, especially if you drop the 45 through there down to say 40, and use 11mph over as the trigger. Folks going 51 would be filling your coffers all day.

I have already started cataloging existing speed limits and zones, in preparation for this:) Luckily, the SHS places date stickers on the back or road signs when they install them:evil:

You are correct. School zones is one of them. Construction sites is another. They (State) will use this to "get it's foot in the door and WILL expand from there. If you don't think so, wait about 3 to 5 years. This is the time frame when the State will come up with some reason why an expansion to this is necessary. I'm pretty sure they will say a speed camera will be needed in area 'x" because it has a high accident rate or high incident of speed through what ever area they come up with; without documenting their claim of course.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Sorry, I'm not now, and never will be, convinced that there is a vast conspiracy of traffic cameras whose only purpose is to seperate me from my hard earned money...(the governemnt already has that part covered)...

I too believe that most police are honest, hardworking people, but I also believe that most corporations try and do the right thing (for their stakeholders).

This is a cause you feel is worth fighting for, good for you...I reserve my right to disagree and say there are bigger issues to worry about. I have enjoyed the discussion though...:buddies:

I never claimed a vast conspiracy. And really, the policehave virtually nothing to do with this. You say you trust the company to do what's right by their stakeholders. That's make money, you know.
 

Natron0915

Active Member
I never claimed a vast conspiracy. And really, the policehave virtually nothing to do with this. You say you trust the company to do what's right by their stakeholders. That's make money, you know.

I do, and as long as its done ethicaly, I have no problem with it. Yes, there are abuses, but I still believe the good outweighs the bad. One other point that I just thought of, I've read numerous posts on this forum about police having better things to do than write tickets all day long, doesn't the installation of speed cameras relieve them of some that burden? I'm just saying....
 

glhs837

Power with Control
I do, and as long as its done ethicaly, I have no problem with it. Yes, there are abuses, but I still believe the good outweighs the bad. One other point that I just thought of, I've read numerous posts on this forum about police having better things to do than write tickets all day long, doesn't the installation of speed cameras relieve them of some that burden? I'm just saying....



See, you are telling me you are expecting ethical behavior from politicians and a company that already has been proven to deploy an innacurate system. I say you have unrealistic expectations of both. I don't mind officers writing citations, I just want them to write them for truly dangerous violations, like following to closely and failure to yield.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Foreman is fighting the speed cameras, not the red light cameras. By MD law, speed cameras are only authorized in school zones. But, as always when theres a buck to be made, theres a game to be played. See, MD law also says that school zones may be placed within 1/2 mile of a school. There is no verbiage to define a school zone beyond that. And there lies the rub.

See, sometimes, you get lucky and your school really lies on a main thoroughfare. Take Leonardtown High, or GMHS. Shazamm, major arteries, easy money. Of course, the zones as they exist are small, in the case on GMHS, no more than a few hundred feet from the entrance. And the speed limit is the same as the rest of the road. Quite often whats happening is that they will take the zone out to the legal distance limit, in this case, almost to Mkays and and the Fairlead Academy on the other.and drop the speed limit by 5mph or 10mph.

Same for Park Hall Elementary. Zone is only about 300 feet from the driveway, and the speed limit is the same, expect that to expand out and drop the speed limit down. Maximizes profit. Now, you ready for the tricky part? Heres where it gets fun.

Where is absolute max traffic in St Marys? 235, of course. But, sadly, the only school that is really on it is Spring Ridge Middle, and its not really on the moneymaker, north of Gate 1. Ah, but remember that 1/2 mile thing? You could place cameras on 235 from the southern entrance to Wal-Mart all the way to Buck Hewitt, using the 1/2 mile from Esperanza and Green Holly.

Now your talking real money, especially if you drop the 45 through there down to say 40, and use 11mph over as the trigger. Folks going 51 would be filling your coffers all day.

I have already started cataloging existing speed limits and zones, in preparation for this:) Luckily, the SHS places date stickers on the back or road signs when they install them:evil:

Where does the law say that they can only be used in school zomes? As I read it, the law says it can be anywhere the local governing body says they can be.

Also the law says that the system will only produce the pictures for those that are at least 12 MPH over the limit.

The law - MGA Statutes Text Page 1

Now has it been proven that some of these systems are faulty, I think so and that is another issue needing addressed.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Its a bit tought to read, I'll grant, and maybe titled can parse it out, but theres the bit I think you want.....

(vi) This section applies to a violation of this subtitle recorded by a speed monitoring system that meets the requirements of this subsection and has been placed:
1. In Montgomery County, on a highway in a residential district, as defined in § 21–101 of this title, with a maximum posted speed limit of 35 miles per hour, which speed limit was established using generally accepted traffic engineering practices;
2. In a school zone established under § 21–803.1 of this subtitle; or

See, Montgomery gets a special deal on placement, because they were the test case for automated enforcement. But everyone else can only put them in school zones. Except the state or localities may place them in work zones.


Speed Camera Law Signed, State Cites Safety as Justification - Southern Maryland Headline News
 

acommondisaster

Active Member
I'm with Natron on this one. I've had one ticket in more than 20 years from cameras - and I drive through quite a few in my trek through DC and Bethesda. I drive through a number of high congestion/school zones along the way. The bottom line is (and I speed a lot) to know where they are, and obey the speed limit and traffic lights. DC's known for throwing up a manned camera along Suitland Pkwy and MacArthur Blvd as well, looking for speeders. I don't doubt there are faulty cameras that need calibration, but I suspect Foreman's found a way to play the system. Of course THAT would never happen. /s
 

Natron0915

Active Member
I'm with Natron on this one. I've had one ticket in more than 20 years from cameras - and I drive through quite a few in my trek through DC and Bethesda. I drive through a number of high congestion/school zones along the way. The bottom line is (and I speed a lot) to know where they are, and obey the speed limit and traffic lights. DC's known for throwing up a manned camera along Suitland Pkwy and MacArthur Blvd as well, looking for speeders. I don't doubt there are faulty cameras that need calibration, but I suspect Foreman's found a way to play the system. Of course THAT would never happen. /s

I also used to drive Suitland into Anny and other points SW everyday, and was aware of where the cameras were...I even managed to not ever get a ticket from those corrupt machines...

Glh, I don't think its unrealistic to expect honest and ethical behaviour. It's what we should expect. Those who break this trust should be punished accordingly, but I'm not going to condemn the group for the behaviours of a few.

I stand by my assertion that if these cameras make money for the municipality, and they give the majority of drivers pause when going through a monitored zone...good!
 

glhs837

Power with Control
Foreman hasn't played the system. What he did was simple science. The system claimed his trucks were going a certain speed. If that were true, the truck would have traveled a certain distance over a set time.

An example.

45mph means a car travels 66 feet per second. if you take two pictures, one second apart, and the vehicle hasn't moved 66 feet, then theres a problem. Could be the timing on the pictures isn't accurate, but if the cameras images are not the proof of the offense, then what is? Ther is no other record to point to.

He was given 2 pictures, and if his truck had been going the claimed speed, the photos would have shown his truck much farther in the second photo. And it didn't. He was ready to fire drivers, he believed the system was accurate also. His drivers racked up 40 tickets. Don't think I am worried about myself, between my average speed of 8-9 over, and my GPs enabled detector, I will be fine.

I just think of all the people who will be paying fines that are not real, and that irks the hell out of me. To see them play the "its for the children" card to rip off the taxpayers, that bothers me.
 
Top