Burden of Proof

[2lazy2P]

I have seen the comment made a few times back and forth about who the burden of proof should lay on and I just wanted to put out my two cents.

I don't believe that I have to prove the non-existence of God, any more than I need to prove the non-existence of Zeus or Santa Claus. Can theist prove God over any alternatives? Of course not, nobody can prove God exist, yet they will stand on there heads saying they're sure. The burden of proof is on the god believer to prove that God exist. It is not up to the Atheist to disprove what has never been established in the first place. So often, I am told, "You cannot prove that there is no God." This is backwards reasoning. Just like the idea that has been tossed around before, I am not obligated to disprove that a leprechaun is standing beside you. You must first prove to me that one is there. Otherwise, I am under no obligation to accept your leprechaun hypothesis. The default position would be "anti-leprechaunism." Is it possible that a leprechaun is next to you? Sure, but I have no reason to believe such a thing, and until I do, I will keep being an "anti-leprechaun!" The same applies to gods and goddesses of all varieties. On all counts, the theist fails to meet his burden of proof and therefore, atheism stands by default.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I don't believe that I have to prove the non-existence of God, any more than I need to prove the non-existence of Zeus or Santa Claus. Can theist prove God over any alternatives? Of course not, nobody can prove God exist, yet they will stand on there heads saying they're sure. The burden of proof is on the god believer to prove that God exist. It is not up to the Atheist to disprove what has never been established in the first place. So often, I am told, "You cannot prove that there is no God." This is backwards reasoning. On all counts, the theist fails to meet his burden of proof and therefore, atheism stands by default.

You're right, you don't have to prove it, you just have to believe it. Actually 2lazy, the problem is that you've chosen not to believe it or you would understand how it works with God.

God has proven Himself to us in a way that an unbeliever cannot accept or understand. So, while you're spouting that ignorant nonsense that you can't even grasp (and that is digging you a deeper hole), we're 100% sure that God exists. We're sure that He's the God that the Bible speaks of and, like it or not, you'll be meeting Him one day to give an account of why you've chosen NOT to believe in Him (after He's provided AMPLE evidence for His existence). When people say that God doesn't exist, they really are talking like a drunk person who has no idea what he is saying. The Spirit of God won't allow them to understand this concept because of their contempt for Him. Here are two verses that God used about that:

13 "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God...The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children..." (Romans 8)

18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate" (1 Corinthians 1)

So, in summation, God will open your eyes to His existence once you decide you want to learn about Him and believe in Him, but not until...

 

[bcp]

I have seen the comment made a few times back and forth about who the burden of proof should lay on and I just wanted to put out my two cents.

I don't believe that I have to prove the non-existence of God, any more than I need to prove the non-existence of Zeus or Santa Claus. Can theist prove God over any alternatives? Of course not, nobody can prove God exist, yet they will stand on there heads saying they're sure. The burden of proof is on the god believer to prove that God exist. It is not up to the Atheist to disprove what has never been established in the first place. So often, I am told, "You cannot prove that there is no God." This is backwards reasoning. Just like the idea that has been tossed around before, I am not obligated to disprove that a leprechaun is standing beside you. You must first prove to me that one is there. Otherwise, I am under no obligation to accept your leprechaun hypothesis. The default position would be "anti-leprechaunism." Is it possible that a leprechaun is next to you? Sure, but I have no reason to believe such a thing, and until I do, I will keep being an "anti-leprechaun!" The same applies to gods and goddesses of all varieties. On all counts, the theist fails to meet his burden of proof and therefore, atheism stands by default.

See the problem is that although God is by faith. Science is by proof.

So since I cant convince you that God does exist, and did create all that we see and are, I then leave it to you to prove that science is correct.

One little thing, just one.
How did the earth and the rest of the planets get here? how did anything get here? Science tells us that we cant create from nothing, yet something originally had to come from nothing didnt it?

Explain to me the big bang theory, where did the hydrogen come from?
How about any theory that science has? where did it all begin.

See, you have to have faith, I would suggest an equal amount of faith that science is right, and wrong and that something can come from nothing.

If you have the ability to have faith that all you see was created from nothing, then you certainly can understand how others can have faith in the creation coming from God.

Science is no more provable when it comes to creation than God is to the non believer

Science continues to prove itself wrong, Gods word remains strong.

I choose God and I follow Jesus Christ instead of choosing science and following Darwin (whom by the way was not really the one that came up with the origin of species)

 

[2lazy2P]

You're right, you don't have to prove it, you just have to believe it. Actually 2lazy, the problem is that you've chosen not to believe it or you would understand how it works with God.

God has proven Himself to us in a way that an unbeliever cannot accept or understand. So, while you're spouting that ignorant nonsense that you can't even grasp (and that is digging you a deeper hole), we're 100% sure that God exists. We're sure that He's the God that the Bible speaks of and, like it or not, you'll be meeting Him one day to give an account of why you've chosen NOT to believe in Him (after He's provided AMPLE evidence for His existence). When people say that God doesn't exist, they really are talking like a drunk person who has no idea what he is saying. The Spirit of God won't allow them to understand this concept because of their contempt for Him. Here are two verses that God used about that:

13 "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God...The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children..." (Romans 8)

18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate" (1 Corinthians 1)

So, in summation, God will open your eyes to His existence once you decide you want to learn about Him and believe in Him, but not until...

Questions, questions, but maybe I shouldn't jump the gun. Maybe, for instance, God allowed evil to enter the world to test the faitfhulness of our souls? Only problem with this is, God already knew who would pass and who would fail the test without a test of any kind, so it's all pointless. Maybe God allowed evil to enter into the world to teach us lessons about life, but that doesn't really work either because God is omnipotent and could have taught man every lesson he ever needed to know a thousand different ways. God could even have made souls born with this knowledge. Maybe God allowed evil to dominate the world to show us the love of salvation in the afterlife, but then that's sort of creating a problem to solve it, don't you think? Why not just show us love in the afterlife in the first place? Why bother with this material world bussiness anyway since heaven and spirtuality have been the real deal all along?

Plus, isn't unleashing an arsenal of evils on a world of unsuspecting, helpless victims, and then promising to make up for it in some illusive afterlife sort of like a deadbeat dad giving his kid a black eye adn then promising to take him to Disneyland to make up for it?

 

[hvp05]

You're right, you don't have to prove it, you just have to believe it.

Then we start down the inevitable path of what to believe. Billions have searched and found some god, but you contend they are wrong. It's akin to declaring that you love some new product before you have tried it or taken it out of the store. God does work in mysterious ways - usually in reverse logic.

 

[2lazy2P]

See the problem is that although God is by faith. Science is by proof.

So since I cant convince you that God does exist, and did create all that we see and are, I then leave it to you to prove that science is correct.

One little thing, just one.
How did the earth and the rest of the planets get here? how did anything get here? Science tells us that we cant create from nothing, yet something originally had to come from nothing didnt it?

Explain to me the big bang theory, where did the hydrogen come from?
How about any theory that science has? where did it all begin.

Scientists at Penn State University and the Virginia Commonwealth University have discovered a way to produce hydrogen by exposing selected clusters of aluminum atoms to water.

Scientists Find New Way to Produce Hydrogen

Did anybody create an Angel yet to show the world???

 

[bcp]

Then we start down the inevitable path of what to believe. Billions have searched and found some god, but you contend they are wrong. It's akin to declaring that you love some new product before you have tried it or taken it out of the store. God does work in mysterious ways - usually in reverse logic.

If you believed there was a God to start with, any God, then we would be able to take your comment seriously, however since you dont, you mock all believers equally. Is that in your mind somehow better than believing in the one true God?

I dont mock science, I actually think that a good deal of it might just be right when it comes to creation, but all they are doing is figuring out in small pieces how GOD put it all together.

 

[bcp]

Scientists at Penn State University and the Virginia Commonwealth University have discovered a way to produce hydrogen by exposing selected clusters of aluminum atoms to water.

Scientists Find New Way to Produce Hydrogen

Did anybody create an Angel yet to show the world???

Thats fantastic.
so, where did the create something from nothing happen in this breakthrough?
Where did the water come from? where did the clusters of aluminum atoms come from?

Please try harder. Nothing, into something.

 

[2lazy2P]

Thats fantastic.
so, where did the create something from nothing happen in this breakthrough?
Where did the water come from? where did the clusters of aluminum atoms come from?

Please try harder. Nothing, into something.

You asked a question and it was answered. Your question was:

Explain to me the big bang theory, where did the hydrogen come from?

And I answered you did I not? One for One, now please have your priest create a Angel and it will then again be your turn to ask another request from science. Thank you.

 

[bcp]

You asked a question and it was answered. Your question was:

you actually have to be able to put more than one thing together
here is the question as written without the creative cutting.

How did the earth and the rest of the planets get here? how did anything get here? Science tells us that we cant create from nothing, yet something originally had to come from nothing didnt it?

Explain to me the big bang theory, where did the hydrogen come from?
How about any theory that science has? where did it all begin.

so, as you can now see, I am kinda asking how the hydrogen got here from nothing in the first place.
But you knew that, you just dont have an answer.. shall we say, you have faith in something you cant see, or touch or understand completely?

And I answered you did I not? One for One, now please have your priest create a Angel and it will then again be your turn to ask another request from science. Thank you.

First off, you really didnt answer me now did you.
Next I dont have a priest, Im not Catholic.
And, priests or pastors or rabbis or any other holy man, does not and can not create an Angel. Only God can create such things.
but then again you try to trick me, or stop me with failed logic.

try harder

 

[hvp05]

How did the earth and the rest of the planets get here? how did anything get here?

Planetary evolution is fairly well understood. What happened to create our solar system several billion years ago is happening today in other star systems, and those observations have bolstered the main theory of our own system.

Science tells us that we cant create from nothing, yet something originally had to come from nothing didnt it?

No, actually it didn't. There has been growing support for the idea that the universe has always existed, expanding then contracting then expanding again; there is also the idea that our universe is one of many universes, each one self-contained like a bubble.


Science is not a religion, nor should it be treated like one. Science also does not have all the answers, but scientists realize that and are willing to admit their shortcomings. In terms of our origins, science makes a hell of a lot more sense than any story concocted thousands of years ago by superstitious people who were in awe of everything natural.

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

I have seen the comment made a few times back and forth about who the burden of proof should lay on and I just wanted to put out my two cents.

I don't believe that I have to prove the non-existence of God, any more than I need to prove the non-existence of Zeus or Santa Claus. Can theist prove God over any alternatives? Of course not, nobody can prove God exist, yet they will stand on there heads saying they're sure. The burden of proof is on the god believer to prove that God exist. It is not up to the Atheist to disprove what has never been established in the first place. So often, I am told, "You cannot prove that there is no God." This is backwards reasoning. Just like the idea that has been tossed around before, I am not obligated to disprove that a leprechaun is standing beside you. You must first prove to me that one is there. Otherwise, I am under no obligation to accept your leprechaun hypothesis. The default position would be "anti-leprechaunism." Is it possible that a leprechaun is next to you? Sure, but I have no reason to believe such a thing, and until I do, I will keep being an "anti-leprechaun!" The same applies to gods and goddesses of all varieties. On all counts, the theist fails to meet his burden of proof and therefore, atheism stands by default.

Agree!

But since I was one of the people discussing this I feel I should point out - again - that I don't expect anyone to prove their faith until they claim they have facts. Faith doesn't need proof but facts do

And remember there are more than just Christians and Athiests (I know you know this, but it seems many forget)...

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

I don't believe that I have to prove the non-existence of God, any more than I need to prove the non-existence of Zeus or Santa Claus. Can theist prove God over any alternatives? Of course not, nobody can prove God exist, yet they will stand on there heads saying they're sure. The burden of proof is on the god believer to prove that God exist. It is not up to the Atheist to disprove what has never been established in the first place. So often, I am told, "You cannot prove that there is no God." This is backwards reasoning. On all counts, the theist fails to meet his burden of proof and therefore, atheism stands by default.

You're right, you don't have to prove it, you just have to believe it. Actually 2lazy, the problem is that you've chosen not to believe it or you would understand how it works with God.

God has proven Himself to us in a way that an unbeliever cannot accept or understand. So, while you're spouting that ignorant nonsense that you can't even grasp (and that is digging you a deeper hole), we're 100% sure that God exists. We're sure that He's the God that the Bible speaks of and, like it or not, you'll be meeting Him one day to give an account of why you've chosen NOT to believe in Him (after He's provided AMPLE evidence for His existence). When people say that God doesn't exist, they really are talking like a drunk person who has no idea what he is saying. The Spirit of God won't allow them to understand this concept because of their contempt for Him. Here are two verses that God used about that:

13 "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God...The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children..." (Romans 8)

18 "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate" (1 Corinthians 1)

So, in summation, God will open your eyes to His existence once you decide you want to learn about Him and believe in Him, but not until...

Here we go again

Can you please define for me FAITH and FACTS (in you opinion)?

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

I have seen the comment made a few times back and forth about who the burden of proof should lay on and I just wanted to put out my two cents.

I don't believe that I have to prove the non-existence of God, any more than I need to prove the non-existence of Zeus or Santa Claus. Can theist prove God over any alternatives? Of course not, nobody can prove God exist, yet they will stand on there heads saying they're sure. The burden of proof is on the god believer to prove that God exist. It is not up to the Atheist to disprove what has never been established in the first place. So often, I am told, "You cannot prove that there is no God." This is backwards reasoning. Just like the idea that has been tossed around before, I am not obligated to disprove that a leprechaun is standing beside you. You must first prove to me that one is there. Otherwise, I am under no obligation to accept your leprechaun hypothesis. The default position would be "anti-leprechaunism." Is it possible that a leprechaun is next to you? Sure, but I have no reason to believe such a thing, and until I do, I will keep being an "anti-leprechaun!" The same applies to gods and goddesses of all varieties. On all counts, the theist fails to meet his burden of proof and therefore, atheism stands by default.

See the problem is that although God is by faith. Science is by proof.

So since I cant convince you that God does exist, and did create all that we see and are, I then leave it to you to prove that science is correct.

One little thing, just one.
How did the earth and the rest of the planets get here? how did anything get here? Science tells us that we cant create from nothing, yet something originally had to come from nothing didnt it?

Explain to me the big bang theory, where did the hydrogen come from?
How about any theory that science has? where did it all begin.

See, you have to have faith, I would suggest an equal amount of faith that science is right, and wrong and that something can come from nothing.

If you have the ability to have faith that all you see was created from nothing, then you certainly can understand how others can have faith in the creation coming from God.

Science is no more provable when it comes to creation than God is to the non believer

Science continues to prove itself wrong, Gods word remains strong.

I choose God and I follow Jesus Christ instead of choosing science and following Darwin (whom by the way was not really the one that came up with the origin of species)

You're confusing things. People don't (or shouldn't anyways) view things like the Big Bang Theory as fact...hence it being called a theory. There is a difference between 'we don't know for sure yet' and 'God must have done it'.

 

[bcp]

Wirelessly posted



You're confusing things. People don't (or shouldn't anyways) view things like the Big Bang Theory as fact...hence it being called a theory. There is a difference between 'we don't know for sure yet' and 'God must have done it'.

Nobody is confusing anything, its only that those that believe 100% in science, refuse to admit that it requires faith.

Planetary evolution is fairly well understood. What happened to create our solar system several billion years ago is happening today in other star systems, and those observations have bolstered the main theory of our own system.

I am well versed in Planetary evolution. And I cant deny that we can see things going on in space today, new planets being discovered, expanding solar systems etc.. however you again stop short, you stop where science tells you to stop and not look any further.
How did that first speck of matter come to be.
either something somewhere was created from nothing, or you have to have faith that there just is no beginning. It was just always there?

To me, that is no more of a stretch than saying, God has always been there, and always will be.

 

[hvp05]

either something somewhere was created from nothing, or you have to have faith that there just is no beginning. It was just always there?

To me, that is no more of a stretch than saying, God has always been there, and always will be.

Precisely. Something must be the truth; either the universe has always been here or it hasn't. The difference is that science does not have a vested interest in stating/proving things one way or the other, but theists do.

Consider: god is infinite. The universe - according to the Bible - had a definite beginning. What was there before our universe? Had god created and destroyed other universes and lifeforms? Or did god sit in darkness until he arbitrarily decided to create us over several days?

You can believe whatever you want; it makes no difference to me, and your opinion will not alter reality anyway. Personally, I do not see a deity when I look at nature. Injecting a deity into the equation makes things more confusing and creates more questions than it answers.

 

[UNA]

Wirelessly posted

You're confusing things. People don't (or shouldn't anyways) view things like the Big Bang Theory as fact...hence it being called a theory. There is a difference between 'we don't know for sure yet' and 'God must have done it'.

Nobody is confusing anything, its only that those that believe 100% in science, refuse to admit that it requires faith.

Planetary evolution is fairly well understood. What happened to create our solar system several billion years ago is happening today in other star systems, and those observations have bolstered the main theory of our own system.

I am well versed in Planetary evolution. And I cant deny that we can see things going on in space today, new planets being discovered, expanding solar systems etc.. however you again stop short, you stop where science tells you to stop and not look any further.
How did that first speck of matter come to be.
either something somewhere was created from nothing, or you have to have faith that there just is no beginning. It was just always there?

To me, that is no more of a stretch than saying, God has always been there, and always will be.

I 'believe' what is tangible, if I can see it I 'believe' it.

The things that you're saying take faith aren't fact (yet) and if I 'believe' them it's because I've looked at the facts and have come to a logical conclusion based on facts. But I still don't run around saying I have proof of said theory. I don't tell people who disagree that they're wrong.

For example, I 'believe' in an oscillating multiverse, but there's no proof so I'll discuss the theory with people who 'believe' in another theory and more often than not, I'll reevaluate what I think, takin into account the new facts or ideas I've been shown.


And science doesn't 'stop' where you seem to think it does, all that is constantly researched. There are plenty if theories out there and they're constantly being evaluated. Science doesn't stop and it never will, science never (now) gets to a point and says "that's it' we know everything now!)

 

[ItalianScallion]

Questions, questions, but maybe I shouldn't jump the gun.

Well you DID come on here with a bang by making those "whacky" statements. I'm just cooling your jets with the reasons why what you've said isn't gonna fly with God.

Maybe, for instance, God allowed evil to enter the world to test the faitfhulness of our souls? Only problem with this is, God already knew who would pass and who would fail the test without a test of any kind, so it's all pointless. Maybe God allowed evil to enter into the world to teach us lessons about life, but that doesn't really work either because God is omnipotent and could have taught man every lesson he ever needed to know a thousand different ways. God could even have made souls born with this knowledge. Maybe God allowed evil to dominate the world to show us the love of salvation in the afterlife, but then that's sort of creating a problem to solve it, don't you think?

I wouldn't say: "it's all pointless". Sure God knew that many would reject His offer of salvation but, to show us His love, He still offered it to everyone. Why do parents still have kids today, knowing that this world is headed to Hell, they might be born severely handicapped and many of them might end up as failures in life? Why? They want to love them and be loved back by them, just as God does.

Actually God allowed evil to enter the world because, when you give humans a choice about good & evil (free will), there will surely be the possibility of evil (Even the angels had free will). If there wasn't, it wouldn't be a choice. He would have forced us to love & follow Him. True love is a choice. This is why Adam & Eve were created perfect but then God gave them a choice. In fact, God gave them a zillion good things and only ONE bad thing and guess what they chose? Yep!

And, btw, God DID "make souls born with this knowledge". He gave us all consciences but, through free will, some have ignored what their consciences have said to them. They're law breakers and, by right, they should be punished, right?

Why not just show us love in the afterlife in the first place? Why bother with this material world bussiness anyway since heaven and spirtuality have been the real deal all along? Plus, isn't unleashing an arsenal of evils on a world of unsuspecting, helpless victims, and then promising to make up for it in some illusive afterlife sort of like a deadbeat dad giving his kid a black eye adn then promising to take him to Disneyland to make up for it?

Who "unleashed the arsenal"? It would be like that if God was the bad guy, but He isn't. WE'RE the bad guys in all this but Jesus took the punishment for our "badness". He said: I love you all soo much that I'll take your punishment (on the Cross) and I'll also provide a way (free of charge) for you to get to Heaven (paraphrased). What more can anyone ask and, yet, people still see Him as a meanie? :shrug:

Then we start down the inevitable path of what to believe. Billions have searched and found some god, but you contend they are wrong. It's akin to declaring that you love some new product before you have tried it or taken it out of the store. God does work in mysterious ways - usually in reverse logic.

Yes but we start down that inevitable path of scammers and liars that we have it in ALL walks of life and it's up to us to sift through it all to find the truth, just like we do in life.

Read the Bible and God will show you the truth and you won't need ANY outside sources to find what's right and what's wrong. I don't worry about being deceived at all. You can be skeptical of everything in life and you'll get nowhere but imagine how fearless you can be when you have the answer book for all truths? Stop doubting and believe (Read what I told UNA down below). Once you start, God will lead you & show you how it all fits together and He will make you absolutely sure that there is no other God in this universe...

Here we go again
Can you please define for me FAITH and FACTS (in you opinion)?

Been there, done that with you. Can you please STOP doubting and start having some faith in the things you can't see? Would you EVER believe in something you can't see? Without faith, you cannot believe in God. Faith starts by looking at the evidence (facts) but you won't even believe that. What good would it do for me to point out all those things to you again? :shrug:

God is NOT going to appear to you in your house and say: Here I am UNA. You need to make a decision to jump start your faith in God or else you'll be saying the same things over & over (as you are doing). Honestly ask God to start revealing Himself to you and He will IF you have a real desire to know Him. If you're just blowing smoke, He will know it and won't do it.

All those questions have been answered for you in other threads. You haven't made a very good "case" for your God and you refuse to believe in the one who has...:shrug:

 

[UNA]

Been there, done that with you. Can you please STOP doubting and start having some faith in the things you can't see? Would you EVER believe in something you can't see? Without faith, you cannot believe in God. Faith starts by looking at the evidence (facts) but you won't even believe that.

I DO believe in things I can't see...the difference is that I don't tell people I have facts about what I believe!! I do have faith and I suppose it did start by looking at facts or the lack thereof.

What good would it do for me to point out all those things to you again? :shrug:

I thought the point - to you - was to convert me.......you're giving up? I don't think God would like that

God is NOT going to appear to you in your house and say: Here I am UNA. You need to make a decision to jump start your faith in God or else you'll be saying the same things over & over (as you are doing). Honestly ask God to start revealing Himself to you and He will IF you have a real desire to know Him. If you're just blowing smoke, He will know it and won't do it.

I did...he didn't because it doesn't work that way, IMO. You believe differently, that OK with me...just stop telling people you have the truth, that you are right and we're all wrong, that you have facts! That's all I want, I don't want you to change your faith, just recognize that it is faith and that's all!

All those questions have been answered for you in other threads. You haven't made a very good "case" for your God and you refuse to believe in the one who has...:shrug:

I'm not trying to make a "case" for my god because I don't believe I need to, I'm not claiming my god is the one true god and your all wrong and I have facts. And I never asked you to make a case for your god either, I asked you to make a case for your claims to have facts.

You still have yet to show me facts as defined by the rest of the world. And what I think you don't realize is that I believe just because you don't have facts (which I don't believe you do) doesn't mean you're wrong about your faith. I'm not going to say "your god is wrong, you're wrong!"

Faith transcends facts.

 

[ItalianScallion]

I DO believe in things I can't see...the difference is that I don't tell people I have facts about what I believe!! I do have faith and I suppose it did start by looking at facts or the lack thereof.

Now all we have to do is turn that faith to the right God, soon.

I thought the point - to you - was to convert me.......you're giving up? I don't think God would like that

I've given you what I can but you won't believe me. I cannot make you believe so I'll have to hope God opens up your heart & eyes to what you've seen written here. And, no, I'm not giving up on you but what else can I say to you? You counter most of what I've said because you're looking for tangible proof of everything. I should ask you to prove the "love" that you have for your husband. Tangibly you can't prove it, you can only show me evidence of it. Ga'head; try...

...just stop telling people you have the truth, that you are right and we're all wrong, that you have facts! That's all I want, I don't want you to change your faith, just recognize that it is faith and that's all! You still have yet to show me facts as defined by the rest of the world. And what I think you don't realize is that I believe just because you don't have facts (which I don't believe you do) doesn't mean you're wrong about your faith. I'm not going to say "your god is wrong, you're wrong!"

But you DO want me to change my faith. You're asking me to not tell everyone I have the only truth but that would mean agreeing with the devil and I cannot do that.

And see, God commanded us to tell others that they have the wrong god. This is what's going to send them to Hell one day. How could ANY caring person ignore such a command? I can't.