Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
Did you glance over "They both certainly share blame"?
$22T...you can't make this up
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Did you glance over "They both certainly share blame"?
This_person
Well-Known Member
Yes, and then I read the rest of the post.
Did you read the word "more", implying I got you were saying "share" but putting the bulk of the blame "more" on one side than the other?
LtownTaxpayer
Active Member
If anyone moves goalposts, it is congress. They are the ones who are in DC for 20, 30, or 40 years. During this administration they oppose something that they voted for in the last administration.
LightRoasted
If I may ...
If I may ...
Your inability to grasp the decline of this Nation is profoundly vexatious. Just since 2001, over 78,000 manufacturing plants, have been shuttered, (aka decimation), across America costing over 7 million people their livelihood. If robotics and automation are so prevalent, why is it that China hasn't replaced their over 120 million manufacturing plant workers with them? Of course the media heads will deflect the loss of our manufacturing due to automation, or other misleading reasons. In addition, many, that are put on financial shows to tout that claim, have misread the statical data, or just plain lie.
Now why would countries import service jobs that their own citizens can do themselves? Do you even think? All these service jobs here, "retail, financial services, digital services, real estate, hospitality, education, health, social work, computer services, recreation, media, communications, and electricity, gas and water supply, etc." Anyone can do them. When there are more people that can do, (especially when there are no more skilled manufacturing jobs), relative to positions available, kinda makes that work cheaper, don't it? Companies can pay less because of the over supply, right?
Wages have not increased relative to monetary inflation. While the numbers have gone up, they have not kept up with the dollar's loss of purchasing power. That is why people can not get ahead, and in fact are losing ground. As an example, it took 27 years for the median wage to go from $20,172 in 1990 to $48,251 in 2017. While new home prices went from $118,000 to $335,0000. A three fold increase compared to two for wages. Nearly half of US workers, 48%, earn less than $31,561 annually.
"To put it simply, we have extra money, they have extra goods..." No we don't. No they don't. The majority of money spent is borrowed to purchase these things. Credit cards, etc.. No business is just going to make, "extra goods" in hopes of them selling. Are you insane?
Overall, you are seriously and demonstrably ignorant. Or, just plain stupid.
Then why else has production gone up but persons emplolyed in manufacturing has gone down? Magic?
Most Americans unaware that as U.S. manufacturing jobs have disappeared, output has grown
Although manufacturing jobs have fallen in recent decades, improved productivity has kept manufacturing output rising – contrary to what many Americans believe.www.pewresearch.org
Beef and homes are still markets. What do you expect?
Homelessness was a rarity? Where were you living? And what time frame? You're just tossing accusations out without any sort of basis for them. It should be noted that Reagan signed the Homeless Assistance act in the late 80's.
Our manufacturing is not being decimated as previously pointed out. Manufacturing output has increased almost 5-fold (adjusting for inflation) over the last 70 years. Where are you coming up with this stuff?
Yes, we are a service based economy. Out of the three (extractive, good producing, and service), we certainly are a service economy and that's easily found if you look somewhere beyond "AOC's Economics 101" book. I'm sorry that you feel it's ignorant, but based on your previous replies on this subject, it's not surprising. Advances in manufacturing have allowed greater productivity and efficiency with less workers. This means lower prices for consumers. Why is that a bad thing?
Also, know that service sector employment includes retail, financial services, digital services, real estate, hospitality, education, health, social work, computer services, recreation, media, communications, and electricity, gas and water supply, etc. and you don't think any of that is exportable? You're smoking crack. It's also a simple fact that the three types of economies are not independent of each other and there are services that rely on manufacturing. There wouldn't be mechnics if no ione built cars, right? On the flip side, there wouldn't be stadium construction jobs if there wasn't football, baseball, etc.
Wages have continaully, and evenly, increased over time so I'm not sure where you get the idea that Americans aren't or won't get paid. The idea they won't get paid enough because we don't manufacture is ridiculous. The entire reason we import more than we export (i.e. trade deficit) is solely because we have more expendable money. To put it simply, we have extra money, they have extra goods we choose to pay for. Everyone wins.
Let's assume what you say is true and Americans don't make enough money because we don't manufacture (ignoring the fact that manufacturing is a tiny portion of overall employment sectors), you're advocating moving manufacturing back here which means increased cost of manufacturing, thus increased cost of goods. Now, you're broke Americans are even more broke because they are buying the most expensive American made goods because some yahoo assumes that building things here equals global might.
You know why 80% of those tools say China? Because Americans want to spend less on tools so they buy the cheaper ones from China. Is this really that difficult for you? Fact is, we have a trade deficit, but that's not a bad thing. We give extra money for goods. It's akin to you being pissed off at the local Giant or Safeway because you bought more from they than they buy form you.
Your inability to grasp the decline of this Nation is profoundly vexatious. Just since 2001, over 78,000 manufacturing plants, have been shuttered, (aka decimation), across America costing over 7 million people their livelihood. If robotics and automation are so prevalent, why is it that China hasn't replaced their over 120 million manufacturing plant workers with them? Of course the media heads will deflect the loss of our manufacturing due to automation, or other misleading reasons. In addition, many, that are put on financial shows to tout that claim, have misread the statical data, or just plain lie.
Now why would countries import service jobs that their own citizens can do themselves? Do you even think? All these service jobs here, "retail, financial services, digital services, real estate, hospitality, education, health, social work, computer services, recreation, media, communications, and electricity, gas and water supply, etc." Anyone can do them. When there are more people that can do, (especially when there are no more skilled manufacturing jobs), relative to positions available, kinda makes that work cheaper, don't it? Companies can pay less because of the over supply, right?
Wages have not increased relative to monetary inflation. While the numbers have gone up, they have not kept up with the dollar's loss of purchasing power. That is why people can not get ahead, and in fact are losing ground. As an example, it took 27 years for the median wage to go from $20,172 in 1990 to $48,251 in 2017. While new home prices went from $118,000 to $335,0000. A three fold increase compared to two for wages. Nearly half of US workers, 48%, earn less than $31,561 annually.
"To put it simply, we have extra money, they have extra goods..." No we don't. No they don't. The majority of money spent is borrowed to purchase these things. Credit cards, etc.. No business is just going to make, "extra goods" in hopes of them selling. Are you insane?
Overall, you are seriously and demonstrably ignorant. Or, just plain stupid.
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
If I may ...
Your inability to grasp the decline of this Nation is profoundly vexatious. Just since 2001, over 78,000 manufacturing plants, have been shuttered, (aka decimation), across America costing over 7 million people their livelihood. If robotics and automation are so prevalent, why is it that China hasn't replaced their over 120 million manufacturing plant workers with them? Of course the media heads will deflect the loss of our manufacturing due to automation, or other misleading reasons. In addition, many, that are put on financial shows to tout that claim, have misread the statical data, or just plain lie.
China is actively dumping money into upgrading manufacturing plants, including robots to offset human labor and has since 2014.
Why China is spending billions to develop an army of robots to turbocharge its economy
China is building a robotic army to turbocharge its economywww.cnbc.com
Now why would countries import service jobs that their own citizens can do themselves? Do you even think? All these service jobs here, "retail, financial services, digital services, real estate, hospitality, education, health, social work, computer services, recreation, media, communications, and electricity, gas and water supply, etc." Anyone can do them. When there are more people that can do, (especially when there are no more skilled manufacturing jobs), relative to positions available, kinda makes that work cheaper, don't it? Companies can pay less because of the over supply, right?
Services are the United States' largest export and service industries account for about 70% of all American jobs (and 80% of all private-sector jobs). Had you been bothered to do a sliver of searching, you'd see that the largest service exports are travel and transportation, finance and insurance, and intellecutal property sales (software, movies, TV, etc.). In some cases, the services exported directly relate to the goods we export also. We're pretty good at building planes, so it makes sense we're pretty good at transportation services.
If other peopel can do them, they must be really bad at it.
Service Exports - High Growth | export.gov
An overview of the service sector as it relates to U.S. exports. This information is taken from "A Basic Guide to Exporting" provided by the U.S. Commercial Service to assist U.S. companies in exporting.www.export.gov
Wages have not increased relative to monetary inflation. While the numbers have gone up, they have not kept up with the dollar's loss of purchasing power. That is why people can not get ahead, and in fact are losing ground. As an example, it took 27 years for the median wage to go from $20,172 in 1990 to $48,251 in 2017. While new home prices went from $118,000 to $335,0000. A three fold increase compared to two for wages. Nearly half of US workers, 48%, earn less than $31,561 annually.
In the 1960's a fridge cost about $3,700. Today, that's about $1,000. Almost a 73% decrease in cost.
A 23" TV in the 60's cost about $2,500 in today's dollars. A 24" smart TV can be had for about $150. 94% decrease in cost.
A 5000BTU AC unit cost $800 in today's dollars. You can find one for about $130. Almost 84% drop.
A microwave would be $3,800 in today's dollars. You can find one for $75. 98% drop.
The TI-2500 calculator would be about $900 in today's dollars. Ignoring the major functionality differences, you can get a TI-30X from Wal-Mart for less than $10.
Home prices are increasing more than wages because, even after losing 1/3 of their value fduring the recession, the labor market is raging, fueling economic activity and home buying, leading to a shortage. That's basic market economics.
One thing not pointed out, is the mortgage interest rates. 30 year fixed mortgage rates were around 15% in the 80's. So, the home price may have been seemingly affordable, the interest rates were not. They're around 4% right now.
Acording to the Census, the median home price in 1990 was $122,900 (or $236,690.17 in today's dollars) with about a 10% mortgage interest rate. Assuming a $236,000 loan with a 10% fixed rate for 30 years, that's $745,585.
Again, according to the Census, the median home price in 2017 was $323,100 ($331,789.11 in today's dollars) with a 4% interest rate. Assuming a $323,000 loan and the same math as above, the total price of the home purchase is $555,139.
"To put it simply, we have extra money, they have extra goods..." No we don't. No they don't. The majority of money spent is borrowed to purchase these things. Credit cards, etc.. No business is just going to make, "extra goods" in hopes of them selling. Are you insane?
What on earth do you think a trade deficit is? If they use borrowed money, so what? It keeps someone in a service sector in a job. And I didn;t say that a business is making "extra goods". I'm saying that businesses make things that people will buy. And we want to buy things from China. Cheap.
Overall, you are seriously and demonstrably ignorant. Or, just plain stupid.
But hey, what do I know. I'm just stupid and ignorant.
LightRoasted
If I may ...
If I may ...
We do not manufacture the hard goods that we Americans use everyday anymore. This is the major problem. The manufacturing you refer to, and automation, is attributed to farming,(food and feed), chemicals, beverages, oil, natural gas, etc..
Btw, a TV of the 60's cannot be compared to a TV of today. Cathode ray tubes and vacuum tubes vs LCD's, transistors and integrated chips.
It's obvious you are still in the Matrix and cannot see what is right in front of you. Most people understand that a Nation that is losing, and lost, its manufacturing, is a Nation in decline. You on the other hand see at as healthy while being spoon fed bogus economic data and contrived opinion.
Its good to see you've made it to the fifth stage -- Acceptance. Self-awareness can give you a sense of who you are and a vision of the person you want to become, and a plan for professional or personal development. Good for you.
We do not manufacture the hard goods that we Americans use everyday anymore. This is the major problem. The manufacturing you refer to, and automation, is attributed to farming,(food and feed), chemicals, beverages, oil, natural gas, etc..
Btw, a TV of the 60's cannot be compared to a TV of today. Cathode ray tubes and vacuum tubes vs LCD's, transistors and integrated chips.
It's obvious you are still in the Matrix and cannot see what is right in front of you. Most people understand that a Nation that is losing, and lost, its manufacturing, is a Nation in decline. You on the other hand see at as healthy while being spoon fed bogus economic data and contrived opinion.
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Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
We don't have to manufacture hard goods anymore. Why is that hard to comprehend? People are paying much much less for their goods and Americans aren't building it. Why do you want Americans to pay more for things? Because you fail to recognize the basic economic principals of this nation as it stands today?
LightRoasted
If I may ...
If I may ...
Trade used to mean acquiring something that you did not have or produce yourself. Today, trade's new meaning, is who can make it the cheapest using the cheapest possible materials at the highest profit. We have become a banana republic by exporting our raw materials, and then importing the finished product. Take a gander at new electric hand saws, Craftsman, Black & Decker, etc.. Total crap, cheaply made junk. When made in America, They were built for endurance, and lasting materials, along with pride being built into each one.
To help with your lack of knowledge in the arena, here are some links to help explain the dire consequences of losing our manufacturing base.
Hope Is Not a Plan: The Myth of American Manufacturing
Worse than the Great Depression: America’s manufacturing jobs implosion
Manufacturing Job Loss: Trade, Not Productivity, Is the Culprit
This is where you show your true ignorance and your complete inability to comprehend. Instead of looking at value, all you see is price.
Trade used to mean acquiring something that you did not have or produce yourself. Today, trade's new meaning, is who can make it the cheapest using the cheapest possible materials at the highest profit. We have become a banana republic by exporting our raw materials, and then importing the finished product. Take a gander at new electric hand saws, Craftsman, Black & Decker, etc.. Total crap, cheaply made junk. When made in America, They were built for endurance, and lasting materials, along with pride being built into each one.
To help with your lack of knowledge in the arena, here are some links to help explain the dire consequences of losing our manufacturing base.
Hope Is Not a Plan: The Myth of American Manufacturing
Worse than the Great Depression: America’s manufacturing jobs implosion
Manufacturing Job Loss: Trade, Not Productivity, Is the Culprit
Chris0nllyn
Well-Known Member
I comprehend just fine and no amount of repeating yourself about how dumb I am is going to change that. You ignore the information I've provided because in your mind American's manufacturing is based solely on cheap hand tools. You ignore the fact that the US is second in the world in exports (second to China) and leads the world in manufacturing planes, weapons, semiconductors, and a host of other things other countries apparently want.
US manufacturing output, adjusted for inflation, has moved at about the same pace since the 1940s. We are making more stuff with less people. That's value, not price.
We're at record highs for real output from the manufacturing sector and has been growing pretty consistently (outside of recessions) for decades.
Manufacturing Sector: Real Sectoral Output for All Workers
Graph and download economic data for Manufacturing Sector: Real Sectoral Output for All Workers (OUTMS) from Q1 1987 to Q3 2023 about output, sector, manufacturing, real, and USA.
fred.stlouisfed.org
The Institute for Industrial Supply Management publishes an index on manufacturing output. They survey executives on hiring, inventories, supply orders, and production levels. They combine this survey with stock prices to determine a final score. Anything over 50 means manufacturing is on the rise. It was 56.6% last month.
Feel free to read the report and the table showing growing orders, production, and employment.
Institute for Supply Management | Established in 1915
Institute for Supply Management (ISM) is the first and largest not-for-profit professional supply management organization worldwide. Founded in 1915, ISM has over 50,000 members located in 100 countries.
www.instituteforsupplymanagement.org
There's a reason Foxconn didn't build the plant in Wisconsin (even after $3 billion in tax breaks). American labor is too expensive for them to complete in the global marketplace.
Foxconn pulls back on its $10 billion factory commitment | TechCrunch
Well that didn’t last long. In 2017, Foxconn announced the largest investment of a foreign company in the United States when it selected Mount Pleasant,
techcrunch.com
Nothing you've said remotely answers point you replied to. Why should Americans be forced to pay more for goods? Why is capitalism so bad to you?
LightRoasted
If I may ...
If I may ...
Yeah. Keep your head in the sand at your own peril, and unfortunately that of your fellow countrymen. You are a lost cause.
Btw. When was the last time you purchased an aeroplane? Or war munitions? Or a truck load of semiconductors? If you cant see the difference between what we export to what we import, to what we manufacture now to what we used to manufacture, to what countries(manufacturers) use, to what people use, to what we used to make here and buy here and use here that we longer make, well, I suggest you ask for a refund of all schooling you attended because you are incapable of critical thinking. Or just plain stupid. Or are a communist. Or are invested in those companies that sell out this Nation and chase nothing but profit at the expense of their countrymen.
Yeah. Keep your head in the sand at your own peril, and unfortunately that of your fellow countrymen. You are a lost cause.
Btw. When was the last time you purchased an aeroplane? Or war munitions? Or a truck load of semiconductors? If you cant see the difference between what we export to what we import, to what we manufacture now to what we used to manufacture, to what countries(manufacturers) use, to what people use, to what we used to make here and buy here and use here that we longer make, well, I suggest you ask for a refund of all schooling you attended because you are incapable of critical thinking. Or just plain stupid. Or are a communist. Or are invested in those companies that sell out this Nation and chase nothing but profit at the expense of their countrymen.