How The Electoral College Saves Us From The Mob Rule Of Democracy

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
How The Electoral College Saves Us From The Mob Rule Of Democracy
Do conservatives need to be ashamed of winning elections by means of the Electoral College that they would not win in a more directly democratic contest? No.


The only complaint of any significance to be leveled against the Constitution’s electoral system is that it sometimes thwarts majority rule. But simple majority rule is neither a principle of the American Founding nor is it a principle of moral right. Conservatives should be proud of using the legal rules, whatever they may be, to advance what is morally good.

‘The Federalist’ and Majority Rule

In “Federalist 68,” Alexander Hamilton explains the rationale behind the Electoral College. The Constitutional Convention balanced five important objectives in creating the system, he affirms. First, “It was desirable that the sense of the people should operate in the choice.” Majority rule was indeed an important goal, for the Founders, but it was not the only goal. It was one among many. Thus, the people have a say in the constitutional system, but their voice is not absolute.

Hamilton’s second reason for the Electoral College is that the actual choice should be made by those best qualified to choose a president of virtue and ability (remember that electors originally had much more discretion in whom they vote for). Third, the system was designed to prevent civil disorder by avoiding direct election of the president and spreading electors’ votes around the nation. Fourth, it prevents bribery of the electors by avoiding pre-existing bodies that could be corrupted over time. Finally, it promotes executive independence by not placing the president’s election in the hands of, for example, the state legislatures or the House of Representatives.

The purpose of this system was not to promote simple majority rule, but good government. Hamilton argues that the Electoral College “affords a moral certainty, that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications.” Although he is unwilling to say that republican government is unimportant, he does maintain that the most important question is ultimately not majority rule. Instead, “the true test of a good government is its aptitude and tendency to produce a good administration.” He echoes this theme two papers later when he argues in No. 70 that majority rule is important, but that if the choice is between majority rule and good government, the latter must be chosen.
 

philibusters

Active Member
I wish people would just let the issue die.

The electoral college is here to stay, its not going anywhere. Further, its been in place since the Constitution went into effect. Just like you change football so a TD counted as 8 points and a fg 2 points or so a TD counted as 5 points and a fg 4, you could change the way we elect the President and it would not necessarily be worse. However, we have the current rules and we have always had the current rules, if you win the popular vote but lose the electoral, you have no argument to complain, you lost according to the rules.

By the same token, I certainly don't buy the electoral college is particularly noble. When the founders wrote the Constitution, I don't think they saw it functioning like it current does. They didn't foresee a binary system of two parties that are always within 7 or 8% of each other. They saw there being more than two viable candidates and they foresaw the electors having more discretion. I don't think their goal was to help a candidate with 46% of the vote beat one with 48% of the vote.

Long story short, I don't have any problem with the electoral college. The rules or the rules and I don't even think the rules here are that bad. Yet at the same time, I don't think the current rules are noble. If you got rid of the electoral college and elected Presidents based purely on majority votes nationwide, you'd get the same results most of the time, and the resuls wouldn't be any more or less noble in my opinion. To me the whole issue is a non-issue, but the rules are not going to change. The current system is working fine and the system is not broken, but I don't buy the arguments of the electoral colleges superiority or nobility either.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
When was it not a fact that if the Democrats didn't like the rules they try to change them.

Remember that Nuclear vote Harry Reid. Well: I sure hope McConnell can grow enough balls to shove that right up your ass.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Long story short, I don't have any problem with the electoral college. .


You should. As is, today, it's a rubber stamp. That was NOT the intent. If it worked, at all, EVERY election there should be SOME electors rejecting the chosen nominee. There is plenty of reason for some to not have voted for Clinton or Obama and Trump. Both Bush's and Reagan, the presidents of my lifetime, all should have passed basically as is. They based the basic competency test.
 

oldgulph

New Member
The Electoral College would not prevent a candidate winning in states with 270 electoral votes from being elected President of the United States

Now 48 states have winner-take-all state laws for awarding electoral votes.
2 award one electoral vote to the winner of each congressional district, and two electoral votes statewide.
Neither method is mentioned in the U.S. Constitution.

The electors are and will be dedicated party activist supporters of the winning party’s candidate who meet briefly in mid-December to cast their totally predictable rubberstamped votes in accordance with their pre-announced pledges.

The current system does not provide some kind of check on the "mobs." There have been 22,991 electoral votes cast since presidential elections became competitive (in 1796), and only 17 have been cast in a deviant way, for someone other than the candidate nominated by the elector's own political party (one clear faithless elector, 15 grand-standing votes, and one accidental vote). 1796 remains the only instance when the elector might have thought, at the time he voted, that his vote might affect the national outcome.

States have enacted and can enact laws that guarantee the votes of their presidential electors

The U.S. Supreme Court has upheld state laws guaranteeing faithful voting by presidential electors (because the states have plenary power over presidential electors).

If any candidate wins the popular vote in states with 270 electoral votes, there is no reason to think that the Electoral College would not elect that candidate.
 

oldgulph

New Member
I wish people would just let the issue die.

The electoral college is here to stay, its not going anywhere. Further, its been in place since the Constitution went into effect. Just like you change football so a TD counted as 8 points and a fg 2 points or so a TD counted as 5 points and a fg 4, you could change the way we elect the President and it would not necessarily be worse. However, we have the current rules and we have always had the current rules, if you win the popular vote but lose the electoral, you have no argument to complain, you lost according to the rules.

By the same token, I certainly don't buy the electoral college is particularly noble. When the founders wrote the Constitution, I don't think they saw it functioning like it current does. They didn't foresee a binary system of two parties that are always within 7 or 8% of each other. They saw there being more than two viable candidates and they foresaw the electors having more discretion. I don't think their goal was to help a candidate with 46% of the vote beat one with 48% of the vote.

Long story short, I don't have any problem with the electoral college. The rules or the rules and I don't even think the rules here are that bad. Yet at the same time, I don't think the current rules are noble. If you got rid of the electoral college and elected Presidents based purely on majority votes nationwide, you'd get the same results most of the time, and the resuls wouldn't be any more or less noble in my opinion. To me the whole issue is a non-issue, but the rules are not going to change. The current system is working fine and the system is not broken, but I don't buy the arguments of the electoral colleges superiority or nobility either.

Maryland has enacted the National Popular Vote bill.

It is 61% of the way to guaranteeing the majority of Electoral College votes and the presidency in 2020 to the candidate who receives the most popular votes in the country, by changing state winner-take-all laws (not mentioned in the U.S. Constitution, but later enacted by 48 states), without changing anything in the Constitution, using the built-in method that the Constitution provides for states to make changes.

All voters would be valued equally in presidential elections, no matter where they live.
Candidates, as in other elections, would allocate their time, money, polling, organizing, and ad buys roughly in proportion to the population

Every vote, everywhere, for every candidate, would be politically relevant and equal in every presidential election.
No more distorting and divisive red and blue state maps of predictable outcomes.
No more handful of 'battleground' states (where the two major political parties happen to have similar levels of support) where voters and policies are more important than those of the voters in 38+ predictable states, like Maryland, that have just been 'spectators' and ignored after the conventions.

The bill would take effect when enacted by states with a majority of the electoral votes—270 of 538.
All of the presidential electors from the enacting states will be supporters of the presidential candidate receiving the most popular votes in all 50 states (and DC)—thereby guaranteeing that candidate with an Electoral College majority.

The bill was approved in 2016 by a unanimous bipartisan House committee vote in both Georgia (16 electoral votes) and Missouri (10).
The bill has passed 34 state legislative chambers in 23 rural, small, medium, large, red, blue, and purple states with 261 electoral votes.
The bill has been enacted by 11 small, medium, and large jurisdictions with 165 electoral votes – 61% of the way to guaranteeing the presidency to the candidate with the most popular votes in the country

NationalPopularVote
 

oldgulph

New Member
Alexander Hamilton, the other Founding Fathers, and the rest of the Founding Generation were dead for decades before state-by-state winner-take-all laws become the predominant method for awarding electoral votes.

Unable to agree on any particular method for selecting presidential electors, the Founding Fathers left the choice of method exclusively to the states in Article II, Section 1
“Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors….”
The U.S. Supreme Court has repeatedly characterized the authority of the state legislatures over the manner of awarding their electoral votes as "plenary" and "exclusive."

Neither of the two most important features of the current system of electing the President (namely, universal suffrage, and the 48 state-by-state winner-take-all method) are in the U.S. Constitution. Neither was the choice of the Founders when they went back to their states to organize the nation's first presidential election.

In 1789, in the nation's first election, a majority of the states appointed their presidential electors by appointment by the legislature or by the governor and his cabinet, the people had no vote for President in most states, and in states where there was a popular vote, only men who owned a substantial amount of property could vote, and only three states used the state-by-state winner-take-all method to award electoral votes.

The current winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes is not in the U.S. Constitution. It was not debated at the Constitutional Convention. It is not mentioned in the Federalist Papers. It was not the Founders’ choice. It was used by only three states in 1789, and all three of them repealed it by 1800. It is not entitled to any special deference based on history or the historical meaning of the words in the U.S. Constitution. The actions taken by the Founding Fathers make it clear that they never gave their imprimatur to the winner-take-all method. The winner-take-all method of awarding electoral votes became dominant only in the 1830s, when most of the Founders had been dead for decades, after the states adopted it, one-by-one, in order to maximize the power of the party in power in each state.

The constitutional wording does not encourage, discourage, require, or prohibit the use of any particular method for awarding a state's electoral votes.

States have the responsibility and constitutional power to make all of their voters relevant in every presidential election and beyond. Now, 38 states, like Maryland, of all sizes, and their voters are politically irrelevant in presidential elections.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERTARIANS: DON’T BE FOOLED BY THESE TWO EXTRA-CONSTITUTIONAL GRASSROOTS MOVEMENTS

- See more at: https://www.conservativereview.com/...nal-grassroots-movements#sthash.bJ6lKZEI.dpuf



The merging of anti-constitutional political thought between the Left and the nullifiers on the Right came to light when Democratic lawmaker Zoe Lofgren, D-Caif. (F, 23%) complained in a hearing that her constituents’ votes counted for less than those of the voters of Wyoming.

Her convoluted reasoning, which she repeated for emphasis, was that many times the number of people in California voted for Hillary Clinton than the number of people in Wyoming that voted for Donald Trump, showing indisputable evidence of how unfair the Electoral College is.

Lofgren claimed that a constitutional convention was needed to prevent, “the majority being ruled by a minority.” She claimed that a dissolution of the union, or secession, would be necessary to prevent future such problems, and further claimed that there was only a need for three more states to call for such a convention. Where she gets that number from is anyone’s guess.

“Rational people, not the fringe, are now talking about whether states could be separated from the U.S., whether we should have a Constitutional Convention,” Lofgren said.

The underlying joke in her comments is obvious; as a fringe, irrational type, Lofgren isn’t quite the right messenger. But the clip is interesting since she uses 1) the movement to amend the Constitution through a convention of states, which she ignorantly called a constitutional convention, and 2) describes breaking apart the union with secession, the same things called for by Ron Paul and his folk.

- See more at: https://www.conservativereview.com/...nal-grassroots-movements#sthash.bJ6lKZEI.dpuf
 

littlelady

God bless the USA
CONSERVATIVES AND LIBERTARIANS: DON’T BE FOOLED BY THESE TWO EXTRA-CONSTITUTIONAL GRASSROOTS MOVEMENTS

- See more at: https://www.conservativereview.com/...nal-grassroots-movements#sthash.bJ6lKZEI.dpuf



The merging of anti-constitutional political thought between the Left and the nullifiers on the Right came to light when Democratic lawmaker Zoe Lofgren, D-Caif. (F, 23%) complained in a hearing that her constituents’ votes counted for less than those of the voters of Wyoming.

Her convoluted reasoning, which she repeated for emphasis, was that many times the number of people in California voted for Hillary Clinton than the number of people in Wyoming that voted for Donald Trump, showing indisputable evidence of how unfair the Electoral College is.

Lofgren claimed that a constitutional convention was needed to prevent, “the majority being ruled by a minority.” She claimed that a dissolution of the union, or secession, would be necessary to prevent future such problems, and further claimed that there was only a need for three more states to call for such a convention. Where she gets that number from is anyone’s guess.

“Rational people, not the fringe, are now talking about whether states could be separated from the U.S., whether we should have a Constitutional Convention,” Lofgren said.

The underlying joke in her comments is obvious; as a fringe, irrational type, Lofgren isn’t quite the right messenger. But the clip is interesting since she uses 1) the movement to amend the Constitution through a convention of states, which she ignorantly called a constitutional convention, and 2) describes breaking apart the union with secession, the same things called for by Ron Paul and his folk.

- See more at: https://www.conservativereview.com/...nal-grassroots-movements#sthash.bJ6lKZEI.dpuf

Wow.
 

Hijinx

Well-Known Member
Argue anything you like, but it kept Hillary out of the WH. And that's a good thing.
 

PeoplesElbow

Well-Known Member
Can you imagine the bitter pill for Maryland to swallow if a R wins the popular vote and it's electors have to vote for the R? If this ever happened I bet it would be the last time it happened.
 

Merlin99

Visualize whirled peas
PREMO Member
You should. As is, today, it's a rubber stamp. That was NOT the intent. If it worked, at all, EVERY election there should be SOME electors rejecting the chosen nominee. There is plenty of reason for some to not have voted for Clinton or Obama and Trump. Both Bush's and Reagan, the presidents of my lifetime, all should have passed basically as is. They based the basic competency test.
I prefer it the way that it's evolved with the apportionment of electors and the "rubber stamp". If I were to make any changes to it, it would be to eliminate the need for the electors completely and just assign the numbers.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
Can you imagine the bitter pill for Maryland to swallow if a R wins the popular vote and it's electors have to vote for the R? If this ever happened I bet it would be the last time it happened.

Or any true blue Democrat state, like Massachusetts, California or New York. This is just a means for Democrats to win the White House - when it goes against them - like the nuclear option - they'll change their mind.
 

Grumpy

Well-Known Member
I prefer it the way that it's evolved with the apportionment of electors and the "rubber stamp". If I were to make any changes to it, it would be to eliminate the need for the electors completely and just assign the numbers.

:yeahthat:
 
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