I'm Thinking A Net Loss .........

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Portland Now Generates Electricity From Turbines Installed In City Water Pipes

Portland has replaced a section of its existing water supply network with Lucid Energy pipes containing four forty-two inch turbines. As water flows through the pipes, the turbines spin and power attached generators, which then feed energy back into the city’s electrical grid. Known as the “Conduit 3 Hydroelectric Project,” Portland’s new clean energy source is scheduled to be up and running at full capacity in March. According to a Lucid Energy FAQ detailing the partnership, this will be the “first project in the U.S. to secure a 20-year Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) for renewable energy produced by in-pipe hydropower in a municipal water pipeline."




from having to now push the water past the turbines .......
[increase in electrical draw of the pumps]
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
from having to now push the water past the turbines .......
[increase in electrical draw of the pumps]

Often times it's pumped up, and gravity back down. Putting it on the down side just makes up for some of the energy used to pump it up. Lucid (the comapny that designed the turbine) says its for gravity systems.

This assumes no loss of head by restricting the down side of the pipe.
 
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GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
This assumes no loss of head by restricting the down side of the pipe.



anything in the pipe is going to be a restriction and cause a loss of flow rate or pressure ....


IMHO yet another stab a perpetual motion



Ethanol - yeah we got that covered [except for the electricity required to make all that alcohol] Oh not to forget the WATER Required
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Once fully operational, the installation is expected to generate $2,000,000 worth of renewable energy capacity over twenty years, based on “an average of 1,100 megawatt hours of energy per year, enough electricity to power up to 150 homes."

Slow. Clap. What a bunch of noise over something so insignificant..yet so expensive too. Roughly twice the power capacity of the generators I maintain out at the island I run.

It does say that the turbines are to be installed in sections of the pipe where the grade is downhill..so no "penalty" there.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
anything in the pipe is going to be a restriction and cause a loss of flow rate or pressure ....


IMHO yet another stab a perpetual motion



Ethanol - yeah we got that covered [except for the electricity required to make all that alcohol] Oh not to forget the WATER Required

20psi pressure loss in the (4) turbine setup in a 42" pipe. On the flip side, less pressure/wear on the PRV in the pipeline.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Slow. Clap. What a bunch of noise over something so insignificant..yet so expensive too. Roughly twice the power capacity of the generators I maintain out at the island I run.

It does say that the turbines are to be installed in sections of the pipe where the grade is downhill..so no "penalty" there.

$1.7 million paid by private investors. At least it's not taxpayer dollars.

The issue I have is the need for such a massive vault. The turbines need 4 pipe diameters seperating them. In the case in Portland, a 14' x 50' vault is needed to house everything.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
$1.7 million paid by private investors. At least it's not taxpayer dollars.

There is that. Let 'em have their science-project fun. It costs me between 8-10 grand a year to maintain and operate a 70 kw diesel generator installation off shore. So, $200,000.00 over 20 years. I'd gladly take half of the 1.7 million investor bucks (half because the power capacity is half) in exchange. ;-)
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
from having to now push the water past the turbines .......
[increase in electrical draw of the pumps]

To some extent, if they weren't gravity..

Hardest part of a turbine like that is getting it to start spinning... that could take a lot of energy, but it takes a fraction of that energy to keep them spinning. Secret would be to always have a demand to keep the water moving through the turbines keeping the stopping and starting to a minimum..

I think it makes a huge amount of sense.. an energy source that we've left untapped.. that MUST be expended.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Slow. Clap. What a bunch of noise over something so insignificant..yet so expensive too. Roughly twice the power capacity of the generators I maintain out at the island I run.

It does say that the turbines are to be installed in sections of the pipe where the grade is downhill..so no "penalty" there.

Doesn't sound like much of a turbine if it's a 40 inch pipe..

Sounds more like a couple of rotating paddles.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
The company says their next generation turbine can produce twice the power.

Like Bob said, it's an enormous untapped resource. People need water. Hopefully the comapny moves on to wastewater next.
 

black dog

Free America
Once fully operational, the installation is expected to generate $2,000,000 worth of renewable energy capacity over twenty years, based on “an average of 1,100 megawatt hours of energy per year, enough electricity to power up to 150 homes.

Like Gilligan states earlier, just with the pressure loss in spinning the turbines it can only be used in certain environments. A 20 psi pressure loss in a community is huge.
Lots of communitys have under 45 psi already, take away 20 and folks will be adding a pukp and bladder tank in there homes, kinna negatively affecting the turbines.
To overcome this the options are to build taller water towers to increase head pressure.
Just to help put things in order, if I remember correctly Chalk Point with both coal burners running during high demands it can produce around a million dollars a day.

.Maybe a better place would be in the water discharge side of hydro-electric plants.

This truly is a pipe dream.
 

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
Once fully operational, the installation is expected to generate $2,000,000 worth of renewable energy capacity over twenty years .....

This truly is a pipe dream.



that was my thought, but I wanted others opinions .....
having to provide additional 'pressure' or flow to compensate fro a loss even if the turbine is only on a down hill slope
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Once fully operational, the installation is expected to generate $2,000,000 worth of renewable energy capacity over twenty years, based on “an average of 1,100 megawatt hours of energy per year, enough electricity to power up to 150 homes.

Like Gilligan states earlier, just with the pressure loss in spinning the turbines it can only be used in certain environments. A 20 psi pressure loss in a community is huge.
Lots of communitys have under 45 psi already, take away 20 and folks will be adding a pukp and bladder tank in there homes, kinna negatively affecting the turbines.
To overcome this the options are to build taller water towers to increase head pressure.
Just to help put things in order, if I remember correctly Chalk Point with both coal burners running during high demands it can produce around a million dollars a day.

.Maybe a better place would be in the water discharge side of hydro-electric plants.

This truly is a pipe dream.

To be fair...I interpreted that 20 psi parasitic loss to be occurring over a section of the system where the fall distance creates an excess head anyway. Some of those pipelines do cover some major elevation changes along their way.

Our home in Norway, like many rural homes in the fjords, was powered by a small water turbine that was situated about 100 meters up the side of the mountain above our home. The water for the house came directly from the same catch basin that fed the turbine; straight gravity feed. The catch basin was something we built around a "step" in a waterfall/stream that came from some 1000 meters farther up the side of the mountain. The turbine generator was around 20 kw as best I recall and old...1950s vintage. But it got the job done.

And we heated the house entirely with wood, except for heat strips under the stone and tile floors in bathroom and laundry room that were electric.

Totally off grid. Loved it.

The stream that we tapped..pic taken at the bottom where it crosses under the road and empties in the fjord. What the view looks like from the top of the mountain..and our house.

seljeseth 9.jpg seljeseth 3.jpg seljeseth 2.jpg seljeseth home.jpg
 
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itsbob

I bowl overhand
The company says their next generation turbine can produce twice the power.

Like Bob said, it's an enormous untapped resource. People need water. Hopefully the comapny moves on to wastewater next.

All new technology has to start somewhere.. and generally once the first prototype is fielded, more people will find ways to refine and make it better.

They may make it twice as efficient, somebody else will beat them to the next jump, and the jump after.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Once fully operational, the installation is expected to generate $2,000,000 worth of renewable energy capacity over twenty years, based on “an average of 1,100 megawatt hours of energy per year, enough electricity to power up to 150 homes.

Like Gilligan states earlier, just with the pressure loss in spinning the turbines it can only be used in certain environments. A 20 psi pressure loss in a community is huge.
Lots of communitys have under 45 psi already, take away 20 and folks will be adding a pukp and bladder tank in there homes, kinna negatively affecting the turbines.
To overcome this the options are to build taller water towers to increase head pressure.
Just to help put things in order, if I remember correctly Chalk Point with both coal burners running during high demands it can produce around a million dollars a day.

.Maybe a better place would be in the water discharge side of hydro-electric plants.

This truly is a pipe dream.

The pipes are over pressurized, typically. Hence the need for a PRV. Dropping it 20psi isn't doing much as the pipe pressure is typically above household pressure anyway.

Nothing is providing extra pressure since it's overpressurized anyway.

It's not generating power to save the world, and it's not an end-all, be-all solution. It is a start and geared to an industry that typically uses a metric ####ton of energy.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
The pipes are over pressurized, typically. Hence the need for a PRV. Dropping it 20psi isn't doing much as the pipe pressure is typically above household pressure anyway.

Nothing is providing extra pressure since it's overpressurized anyway.

It's not generating power to save the world, and it's not an end-all, be-all solution. It is a start and geared to an industry that typically uses a metric ####ton of energy.

Reminds me somewhat of the tidal/current undersea turbine R&D one of my engineers - a brilliant hydrodynamicist - was involved in a few years back. Big machines proposed..itty bitty output. But put enough of 'em on the sea floor, and...
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Reminds me somewhat of the tidal/current undersea turbine R&D one of my engineers - a brilliant hydrodynamicist - was involved in a few years back. Big machines proposed..itty bitty output. But put enough of 'em on the sea floor, and...

Yea those things look cool. They'd be especially helpful along the eastern seaboard (like Maine) where the tides are crazy.
 

black dog

Free America
The pipes are over pressurized, typically. Hence the need for a PRV. Dropping it 20psi isn't doing much as the pipe pressure is typically above household pressure anyway.

Nothing is providing extra pressure since it's overpressurized anyway.
.

Over pressurized really?

When you over pressurize pipe and have fluid go faster say for water 18 to 20 ft per second, you enter the danger zone of doing huge damage to the pipe and fittings. You get things like hammering and blowing fittings and increased wear and failures in the system.
All this stuff is nothing new... In most cases you can't take away from Peter to pay Paul.

.It's like why no new hydro electric on a big scale,,,,,, because they knew 60 years ago that all the rivers that truly make it worthwhile, have generation plants on them already.
 
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