Solar Systems likely to become more expensive

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
FYI for anyone looking into solar.

You may or may not know the International Trade Commission recommended tariffs on imported solar panels. The recommendations from the ITC will be on Trump's desk by 11/13/17 where Trump will likely give approval.

https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2017/er0922ll832.htm

The 2 companies who brought the issue to the ITC requested “a $0.40 per watt duty on imported cells and a $0.78 per watt floor price for imported modules.” This is going to cause material costs to go up, increasing overall job costs and payback periods.
 

b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
That's a pretty large tariff!....

So real quick, how much do you think that would increase the cost the average person installing for just, say water heaters or pool systems? I have no idea. You seem to be pretty up to date on this stuff.
 

black dog

Free America
So real quick, how much do you think that would increase the cost the average person installing for just, say water heaters or pool systems? I have no idea. You seem to be pretty up to date on this stuff.

If I was to replace the 4 panels on my sailboat it would be a additional $480.00 plus tax ...
That will be a incentive to build them here..
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
So real quick, how much do you think that would increase the cost the average person installing for just, say water heaters or pool systems? I have no idea. You seem to be pretty up to date on this stuff.

Consider a high-end panel is ~300 watts and about $240 each panel.

300w x $0.40 = $120
300w x $0.78 = $234

That $240 panel would be $594.

Now multiply that one panel by, let's say, 50 panels and your panel cost goes from $12,000 to $29,700.

In general, panel cost would double.
 
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Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
If I was to replace the 4 panels on my sailboat it would be a additional $480.00 plus tax ...
That will be a incentive to build them here..

It's an incentive not to buy solar. Solar installations have exploded because of cheap panels and the solar industry employed over 260,000 people last year.

It's a horrible idea and I hope it's not signed.

The petition was brought on by Suniva, who filed for bankruptcy then petitioned the ITC 9 days later. SolarWorld supported the petition and the idea that cheap panels are affecting American companies. What's funny is that Suniva and SolarWorld are foreign owned. Suniva is 63% Chinese-owned, manufacturing a ton overseas, while SolarWorld is owned by a German company.
 
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black dog

Free America
It's an incentive not to buy solar. Solar installations have exploded because of cheap panels and the solar industry employed over 260,000 people last year.

It's a horrible idea and I hope it's not signed.

The petition was brought on by Suniva, who filed for bankruptcy then petitioned the ITC 9 days later. SolarWorld supported the petition and the idea that cheap panels are affecting American companies. What's funny is that Suniva and SolarWorld are foreign owned. Suniva is 63% Chinese-owned, manufacturing a ton overseas, while SolarWorld is owned by a German company.

I also have a prop driven alternator on the boat that does very well, but with it you get woop woop woop sound that never stops..
I can easily produce more than I will ever use, but solar is the easiest and the most problem free for me..
If for some reason one of the four 300w panels got damaged, I definitely would replace it, even if the cost doubled..
I would like to see better battery life spans at a more reasonable cost..
I still use lead acid for boat ( house ) storage, Four golf cart 6 volts.. and a single 12v for the diesel.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
I also have a prop driven alternator on the boat that does very well, but with it you get woop woop woop sound that never stops..
I can easily produce more than I will ever use, but solar is the easiest and the most problem free for me..
If for some reason one of the four 300w panels got damaged, I definitely would replace it, even if the cost doubled..
I would like to see better battery life spans at a more reasonable cost..
I still use lead acid for boat ( house ) storage, Four golf cart 6 volts.. and a single 12v for the diesel.

For these sort of small systems, sure, it's not a deal breaker, but I'm working on a 70kW array for a client. That would be about $180,000 installed and could likely jump to $360,000 if the requested tariffs are approved. These large systems will be affected, especially these large solar farms.
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
This complete import tariff is in addition to the tariff that was already imposed against cells specifically from China. And it wasn't an American company, political group, or politician that pushed for these tariffs. It was a Chinese company with a factory in the US that went bankrupt and repeatedly petitioned the ITU for these tariffs, with support from a German company following the same business model.

So the answer is that other companies will now have to follow their model, import the materials from China but build the cells and modules in the US. It will be more expensive (otherwise these companies wouldn't have had trouble competing to begin with), but not $0.40 per watt more expensive.

Or you can do what people have been doing for the last couple of years since the Chinese tariffs went into play, buy your panels from a distributer in Mexico or Canada and have them shipped to the US. You're not importing for resale, so you aren't subject to the tariffs. And it's on your honor system to pay any applicable "use tax" from your state.
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
The petition was brought on by Suniva, who filed for bankruptcy then petitioned the ITC 9 days later. SolarWorld supported the petition and the idea that cheap panels are affecting American companies. What's funny is that Suniva and SolarWorld are foreign owned. Suniva is 63% Chinese-owned, manufacturing a ton overseas, while SolarWorld is owned by a German company.

Guess I should have read completely to the end of the thread before commenting, since I just rehashed what you said here. Will keep my comment up anyways I guess.
 

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member
Guess I should have read completely to the end of the thread before commenting, since I just rehashed what you said here. Will keep my comment up anyways I guess.

No sweat. Wouldn't be the first time something gets repeated in a thread. :lol:
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
I designed a hybrid system for our island club property that was going to include roughly 10 kw of solar panels, a 5kw wind turbine, a 25kw diesel generator, and a pretty large bank of storage batteries. That kind of cost increase could make us remove the solar part of it and install more batteries instead..or certainly scale the solar part back.

Only have the new 25k genny installed so far, anyway...haven't found the funds for the rest of it yet. ;-)
 

Clem72

Well-Known Member
That kind of cost increase could make us remove the solar part of it and install more batteries instead..or certainly scale the solar part back.

You can find American made panels for about ~15% more per watt than their equivalent Chinese competitors (though they are usually higher efficiency more expensive varieties to begin with). This might go up a bit if demand goes up after any new tariffs.

Assuming you were going to buy decent panels to begin with, you aren't looking at a huge cost increase for the panels and the associated hardware/cabling/installation would be cheaper with larger more efficient panels in any case.

There are several manufacturers in NY, and you can often buy straight from the factory and save a ton on shipping/markup if you're willing to drive up. Might have to buy a half/whole pallet, but sounds like you were going to anyways.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
Consider a high-end panel is ~300 watts and about $240 each panel.

300w x $0.40 = $120
300w x $0.78 = $234

That $240 panel would be $594.

Now multiply that one panel by, let's say, 50 panels and your panel cost goes from $12,000 to $29,700.

In general, panel cost would double.

Installation, you can assume (approximate) $1000 per panel today.. so now you'd be talking about $1300 a panel installed..

50 panel system just went from 50K to 65000.

OUCH.. even with the 19,500 you get back at tax time.. OUCH..
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
You can find American made panels for about ~15% more per watt than their equivalent Chinese competitors (though they are usually higher efficiency more expensive varieties to begin with). This might go up a bit if demand goes up after any new tariffs.

Assuming you were going to buy decent panels to begin with, you aren't looking at a huge cost increase for the panels and the associated hardware/cabling/installation would be cheaper with larger more efficient panels in any case.

There are several manufacturers in NY, and you can often buy straight from the factory and save a ton on shipping/markup if you're willing to drive up. Might have to buy a half/whole pallet, but sounds like you were going to anyways.

That's hopeful. We really want and need to stop hauling so much diesel fuel out to that island..
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
I designed a hybrid system for our island club property that was going to include roughly 10 kw of solar panels, a 5kw wind turbine, a 25kw diesel generator, and a pretty large bank of storage batteries. That kind of cost increase could make us remove the solar part of it and install more batteries instead..or certainly scale the solar part back.

Only have the new 25k genny installed so far, anyway...haven't found the funds for the rest of it yet. ;-)

If you're going to have a bank of batteries I'd look into a Hybrid GenSet.. 25K may be a little too large, but we use Hybrid GenSets now and it makes it so we have to fuel generators every other day instead of every 8 hours.

GenSet would charge the batteries, batteries would power the property, genset only runs when batteries need charged (during a sunny day your gen wouldn't run at all)

I would LOVE to have a bank of batteries.. but cost and size of batteries for a 13kWh system was a little astronomical..
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
The island has an odd use cycle. Zero electricity draw from Monday through early Friday..then an average of 15kw, peaking to 25kw in summer months when AC is running, from midday Friday through Sunday evening. So I've designed a system around that..totally different than an off grid home would require.

Fairly low wattage power sources with tons of slack time to charge a large battery bank that can support the 2 1/2 days of actual draw...with the 25kw genny to pick up the slack automatically if battery charge hits specified lower threshold.
 
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black dog

Free America
That ac is a killer for sure, I have installed a few free electric providers on the farm in the last few years for fun.. I don't use ac there so that makes it easier. But due to the fact my electric bill last month was 27 bucks and change its just not worth it.
 

itsbob

I bowl overhand
FYI for anyone looking into solar.

You may or may not know the International Trade Commission recommended tariffs on imported solar panels. The recommendations from the ITC will be on Trump's desk by 11/13/17 where Trump will likely give approval.

https://www.usitc.gov/press_room/news_release/2017/er0922ll832.htm

The 2 companies who brought the issue to the ITC requested “a $0.40 per watt duty on imported cells and a $0.78 per watt floor price for imported modules.” This is going to cause material costs to go up, increasing overall job costs and payback periods.

What is the difference between a cell and a module and why the difference per watt cost??
 
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