The Bible Does Not Support America’s Collective Guilt on Slavery

GURPS

INGSOC
PREMO Member
The Gospel is an individual promise with serious collective implications, not the other way around. Collective salvation is a quasi-religious concept reflected in liberation theology, the Social Gospel, and social justice. It’s not Christian theology. We are accountable for our own sins, not the sins of others (2 Cor. 5:10).

Salvation is “collective” only in the sense that Jesus’ atonement is sufficient to cover the sins of every human being. He died “for all.” But every person does not choose to accept his gift of salvation. This decision, which results in salvation, is personal.

If you reason that because we are all collectively condemned by the sin of Adam, we are also collectively redeemed in Christ, you would be forced to embrace universalism — that all men are saved. Otherwise, you would have to reject the efficacy of Christ’s atoning work. If all aren’t saved, it must mean that all don’t personally choose to be saved or that Christ’s work on the cross failed. The latter is simply not true. Hence, we have collective sin (as well as personal sins), but personal redemption.

All humanity is collectively responsible for the original sin of Adam. We have all fallen short of the glory of God. We collectively suffer the consequences of original sin by living in a fallen and turbulent world. We also collectively and individually suffer the guilt and therefore the punishment of that sin — spiritual and physical death.

This doctrine, however, does not extend to any “sin” beyond the original sin of Adam. In other words, we are punished collectively for that one sin, and we suffer because of that one sin. We are collectively condemned because of that one sin, and we are redeemed by Christ because of that one sin. But we are not accountable for the manifold of sins committed by Adam or any other ancestor down through the ages. There are no other “original sins.”


Note to Tim Keller: The Bible Does Not Support America’s Collective Guilt on Slavery
 

b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Keller - I am responsible for MY sins, not the sins that others have done. Period. If others suffer because of My sin, then that is MY responsibility, not theirs. They have no guilt because of MY sin. The Bible does not, anywhere, ever, hold anyone responsible for the sin of others. Since the illegal booty was found in Aachan's tent, it must be held that his entire family knew about it and were accomplices.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
The Bible does not, anywhere, ever, hold anyone responsible for the sin of others.

Um, what Bible do you read? Because the one I read, there were plenty of people who were punished for the sins of those before them.
 

b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Um, what Bible do you read? Because the one I read, there were plenty of people who were punished for the sins of those before them.

You're talking about judgements on entire tribes or peoples, and that is because of their, as a group, voluntarily turning away from God, usually choosing to worship other symbols or made up gods.

But you are right - some future generations have been punished because of gross sins of their ancestors, but not put to death. Those generations are not responsible for it, but they live in the situations caused by it. I should have worded my post better.

The exodus is a good example. Because of the nations continued grumbling and disbelief in God's promise, only two, Joshua and Caleb of the original group, were allowed to enter the promised land. Even Moses, who was the leader, was not allowed to enter because he disobeyed God, and did it publicly in front of the entire nation, making the people believe he accomplished the miracle, and not God.

Give me some specific examples that makes you think the way you think about it. I'd be glad to talk about it.:buddies:

P.S. - We got below freezing at my house twice this past week - how did ya'll make out down there?
 
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Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
You're talking about judgements on entire tribes or peoples, and that is because of their, as a group, voluntarily turning away from God, usually choosing to worship other symbols or made up gods.

The exodus is a good example. Because of the nations continued grumbling and disbelief in God's promise, only two, Joshua and Caleb of the original group, were allowed to enter the promised land. Even Moses, who was the leader, was not allowed to enter because he disobeyed God, and did it publicly in front of the entire nation, making the people believe he accomplished the miracle, and not God.

Give me some specific examples that makes you think the way you think about it. I'd be glad to talk about it.:buddies:

P.S. - We got below freezing at my house twice this past week - how did ya'll make out down there?


There is the long held theory that all of Cain’s mark was dark skin and that all of his descendants are similarly marked. :shrug:
 

seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
Um, what Bible do you read? Because the one I read, there were plenty of people who were punished for the sins of those before them.

I think that was Old Testament only, Vraiblonde, in the New Testament, after the birth, death and resurrection, everything changed.

You are right though... God did make the children pay for the father's sin. It was supposed to be a deterrent I think... which, of course, didn't work too well.

Humans are horrible magpies that will worship any shiny object... or so it seems.... and slavery, brutality to women, child sacrifice were common in the other religions of the earth....

:coffee:
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Give me some specific examples that makes you think the way you think about it. I'd be glad to talk about it.:buddies:

"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me"
~Exodus 20:5

Here goes Noah, passed out drunk and naked, and all of Canaan was cursed.

Deuteronomy and 2 Samuel have several stories of someone being punished because of what their ancestors did. David and Bathsheba's illegitimate son died and it is definitely indicated that it was a punishment from God.

“In the days of his son I will bring the calamity on his house.”
~1 Kings 21:29

And then there's the most famous one where all of mankind was punished because Adam and Eve gave in to Satan's temptation.
 

b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me"
~Exodus 20:5

Here goes Noah, passed out drunk and naked, and all of Canaan was cursed.

Deuteronomy and 2 Samuel have several stories of someone being punished because of what their ancestors did. David and Bathsheba's illegitimate son died and it is definitely indicated that it was a punishment from God.

“In the days of his son I will bring the calamity on his house.”
~1 Kings 21:29

And then there's the most famous one where all of mankind was punished because Adam and Eve gave in to Satan's temptation.

The sin of Adam - the biggie that caused us to be in the current situations we are in. Humanity, and our responsibility to God. We are responsible for what happens, not God. It's all up to us.

Those are examples of future judgements by God passed down to specific generations that are not responsible for the specific sins committed, but paying the price for it. Same thing happens today - innocent people very often pay in more ways than can be imagined for sin committed by others. All this pain and suffering, both emotional and physical, was warned to the human race because of sin. We haven't learned much, have we?
 

b23hqb

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
There is the long held theory that all of Cain’s mark was dark skin and that all of his descendants are similarly marked. :shrug:

I've heard that, and there is no biblical evidence that I have ever heard of to support it. The Hebrew word for mark is " 'owth" which simply means mark, sign, or token. That word has never been translated to mean black or dark skin. That mark was for Cain only, and displayed to all that Cain was not to be killed by anybody for any reason. I put that myth in the urban legend category.
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
I've heard that, and there is no biblical evidence that I have ever heard of to support it. The Hebrew word for mark is " 'owth" which simply means mark, sign, or token. That word has never been translated to mean black or dark skin. That mark was for Cain only, and displayed to all that Cain was not to be killed by anybody for any reason. I put that myth in the urban legend category.

there are all kinds of referencs to that interpretation in the writings and sermons of ministers justifying the african slave trade. They got it from somewhwere. Not that i agree with it.....
 

seekeroftruth

Well-Known Member
You know.... after reading the stories of the last two Levites in Judges.... Jonathan and this guy who is now inciting a war over a woman he apparently owned.... I'm thinking the preachers have been misguiding the members since the beginning. The Old Testament has been full of stories of leaders going off the deep end to maintain the status quo. Aaron and the golden calf.... that's another example of a religious leader pandering to the crowd.

All this talk about homosexuality being the sin in Judges 19 [the second Sodom] isn't supported in the commentaries.... mean vile violent men... sure but homosexual activity.... it doesn't make sense in either of the accounts.... why would you send a woman out to homosexuals????? Both times... the man of the house offered women to appease the men pounding at the door.... what sense would it make?????

Why would God label a whole population when one man was under His protection? Cain was afraid someone would kill him.... for being a killer.... So the church in the south... needing to kneel to the richest donors.... devised a "fake" and it worked... and the others preachers had to be delighted to pick up on it.....

The plain and simple truth is.... we need to read the Bible for ourselves.... we need to check on things that seem to be out of sequence or questionable... remembering of course that God is God and if He so desires He can stop the world on its axis or put a thought in the mind of a human.... when reading the Bible.... we need to get at least two witnesses to the meaning or things... If you are going to a church that doesn't use Bibles.... maybe you should ask why.... if the answer is "you wouldn't understand what you are reading".... or "you might interpret it wrong".... maybe you should wonder if they wouldn't rather be saying "you can't handle the truth"....

Just my two cents....

:coffee:
 
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