Tariffs...2.5 jobs lost for each one gained?

[transporter]

A plant in Illinois may re-open and add 500 jobs...great for those workers...until the tariffs end of course...then what?

Oh and then there is the actual economic reality that highlights why tariffs are dumb...and this tariff idea by our massively incompetent President is beyond idiotic..

Bob Miller, Chief Executive Officer of NLMK’s U.S. unit, said if his company’s customers refuse to accept a 25 percent price hike as a result of the tariffs, nearly 1,200 workers could eventually lose their jobs - and the ones in Farrell would be the first to go when supplies of imported slabs run out.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-these-u-s-steelworkers-jobless-idUSKCN1GL2V9

This is before any retaliatory tariffs are imposed. MAGA! MAGA!

Trump the Great Business Man!!

 

[limblips]

Fire up the U.S. plants to make the slabs that need to be rolled out and stop buying them from Russia.

 

[Starman]

This is the kind of thing that happens when a gaggle of morons hire a "businessman" to run the national government.

 

[Hijinx]

A plant in Illinois may re-open and add 500 jobs...great for those workers...until the tariffs end of course...then what?

Oh and then there is the actual economic reality that highlights why tariffs are dumb...and this tariff idea by our massively incompetent President is beyond idiotic..



https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-these-u-s-steelworkers-jobless-idUSKCN1GL2V9

This is before any retaliatory tariffs are imposed. MAGA! MAGA!

Trump the Great Business Man!!

I won't get an answer of course. Tranny just drops her turd and runs, but maybe someone else can help me.
Are there any countries with no Tarriff's?
If they are so dumb why do they exist? If only dumb countries have tarrifs, there are a lot of dumb assed countries.

 

[BOP]

This is the kind of thing that happens when a gaggle of morons hire a "businessman" to run the national government.

Let's let that inflammatory statement pass for a moment, and pretend that the only other alternative was Hillz "the first woman President" Clinton was elected. What do you suppose the outcome would be, other than a 3rd term of Obama?

 

[PsyOps]

This is the kind of thing that happens when a gaggle of morons hire a "businessman" to run the national government.

Well, if the gaggle of morons on the other side would have put up a candidate that isn't a criminal maybe you'd be in that communist nirvana you dream to be in.

 

[Hijinx]

One thing is perfectly clear, it took a really terrible candidate to lose when the Democrats had a lock on the LGBTQ vote, The black vote, the yellow dog Democrat vote, the anti gun vote,the Beta male vote,the college kid vote,the liberal college professor vote,the feminist vote,and the Deep State Obama Government worker vote.

 

[LightRoasted]

If I may ...

Tariffs exist to protect industry from unfair competition, product dumping and assist in funding the Federal government. The mean annual wage of steel plant men is $49,050. Compared to about $2,829 (ie slave wages) for a Chinese steel worker with no health insurance, with no retirement funding, with no social security. So who would you rather support? The Chinese factory worker, or the American worker?

 

[Chris0nllyn]

If I may ...

Tariffs exist to protect industry from unfair competition, product dumping and assist in funding the Federal government. The mean annual wage of steel plant men is $49,050. Compared to about $2,829 (ie slave wages) for a Chinese steel worker with no health insurance, with no retirement funding, with no social security. So who would you rather support? The Chinese factory worker, or the American worker?

Anti-dumping rules already exists and the cheap chinese labor helps keep millions in steel-consuming industries in a job.

Steel consumers had a problem with American-made steel and the quality of it. Say what you will about wages, but the product seemed to be superior according to those in the business.

 

[LightRoasted]

If I may ...

Anti-dumping rules already exists and the cheap chinese labor helps keep millions in steel-consuming industries in a job. Steel consumers had a problem with American-made steel and the quality of it. Say what you will about wages, but the product seemed to be superior according to those in the business.

Really? Bad American steel? Problems you say? Proof? Cause? And, anti-dumping rules kick in after the fact well after industry has noticed and filed a complaint. By then, most times the damage is already done and nothing stops then from doing it again. Tariffs stop it outright. Why are you an apologist for china? American steel will still, "keep millions in steel-consuming industries in a job".

 

[Chris0nllyn]

If I may ...



Really? Bad American steel? Problems you say? Proof? Cause? And, anti-dumping rules kick in after the fact well after industry has noticed and filed a complaint. By then, most times the damage is already done and nothing stops then from doing it again. Tariffs stop it outright. Why are you an apologist for china? American steel will still, "keep millions in steel-consuming industries in a job".

The 2003 assessment carried out by the USITC, which includes a detailed firm survey, sheds light on these issues. In addition to price increases, it found that almost half of responding steel-using firms (and many more in some cases) reported difficulty in obtaining steel in the quality and quantity desired. 11% of all responding firms reported that they had shifted to sourcing finished parts from overseas as a result of the safeguard measures, and this proportion reached 16% in steel fabricators and motor vehicle parts sectors, 29% in furniture and hardware, and 50% in household appliances.

https://theconversation.com/what-do...bush-administrations-2002-steel-tariffs-90567

Anti dumping rules kick in after, but the US has CVDs (countervailing duties) as well as antidumping duties. CVDs don't require a finding of unfiar pricing and both are international agreed upon agreements. There's plenty to get them to "stop them from doing it again".

China doesn't even rank in the top 10 steel importers in the US (Canada - 16%, Brazil - 13%, South Korea - 10%, Mexico - 9%, Russia - 9%, Turkey - 7%, Japana - 5%, Taiwan - 4%, Germany - 3%, India - 2%), so why ask if I'm a "China apologist"? If you're worried about China, these tariffs aren't going to do much, if anything, to them.
https://www.trade.gov/steel/countries/pdfs/imports-us.pdf

History shows us something else (relating to the jobs in consuming industries). G.W Bush imposed tariffs between 8-30% on steel and 200,000 jobs were lost, along with a $4 billion hit to the economy. Steel producing insdustries employ around 140,000 people and around $36 billion in the economy each year (these are 2015 census numbers), but steel-consuming industries employ 6.5+ million people that add about $1 trillion to the economy. That's a 1:46 ratio (steel producing to steel consuming).

Plus, steel mill jobs were declining before we started competing with China on steel.
https://www.commerce.gov/sites/comm...nal_security_-_with_redactions_-_20180111.pdf

People in the industry chalked that up to innovation and consolidation of the industry. (The US still uses very old blast furnaces)
https://conexus.cberdata.org/files/MfgReality.pdf

There's never been, and never will be a free subsidy. We'll all pay a bit more for goods to save a few hundred jobs and if history shows us anything, we'll end up losing more jobs than those gained.

Not to mention the entire basis for these tariffs is misguided and simply bull####. (i.e. Section 232 - "National Security"). Followed by a Commerce Secretary that's pushing these tariffs who made huge amounts of money buying bankrupt steel companies the last time steel tariffs were imposed.
http://www.wnyc.org/story/wilbur-ross-extraordinary-timing/

 

[SamSpade]

Oh and then there is the actual economic reality that highlights why tariffs are dumb...and this tariff idea by our massively incompetent President is beyond idiotic..

In fact, they are SO dumb that virtually every nation on the planet imposes them, and some of them are absurd.
Last time I checked, the EU drops a 25% tariff on our pickups and 10% on our cars.

Not surprisingly, they're outraged we might do the same as they do.

 

[SamSpade]

China doesn't even rank in the top 10 steel importers in the US (Canada - 16%, Brazil - 13%, South Korea - 10%, Mexico - 9%, Russia - 9%, Turkey - 7%, Japana - 5%, Taiwan - 4%, Germany - 3%, India - 2%),

Feel free to point out where Trump has singled out China as the entire focus of the tariffs. Include anything from his campaign if you like.
Yes - he knows that we get our steel - and aluminum - from Canada. He's also making this a bargaining chip for renegotiating NAFTA.

Most of our trade deficit is just five countries - China, Canada, Mexico, Japan and Germany.

I don't see this as anything but firing the first shot and getting a fair deal out of it. Even during the campaign, he said
he'd renegotiate bilateral trade agreements and NAFTA.

 

[Chris0nllyn]

Feel free to point out where Trump has singled out China as the entire focus of the tariffs. Include anything from his campaign if you like.
Yes - he knows that we get our steel - and aluminum - from Canada. He's also making this a bargaining chip for renegotiating NAFTA.

Most of our trade deficit is just five countries - China, Canada, Mexico, Japan and Germany.

I don't see this as anything but firing the first shot and getting a fair deal out of it. Even during the campaign, he said
he'd renegotiate bilateral trade agreements and NAFTA.

You'll notice I was responding to someone who asked, "Why are you an apologist for china?".

Hence why it was brought up.

 

[SamSpade]

You'll notice I was responding to someone who asked, "Why are you an apologist for china?".

Hence why it was brought up.

Fair enough.

I've been reading a little more about our trade deficit with them.
I guess one of the things I'm unclear on is, how is it we ship raw materials to U.S. companies IN China,
and when it all comes back to us, it's considered an import? Isn't "import" then a matter of semantics?

The other is something I guess I've known for a while - the yuan exchange rate is tied to the value of the dollar.
I'm lacking enough understanding how this affects our economies other than them buying our debt.

 

[Starman]

Fair enough.

I've been reading a little more about our trade deficit with them.
I guess one of the things I'm unclear on is, how is it we ship raw materials to U.S. companies IN China,
and when it all comes back to us, it's considered an import? Isn't "import" then a matter of semantics?

More or less semantics, but it has to do with China factories adding value to the product. You're importing the final good which was produced with that off-shored labor.

 

[LightRoasted]

If I may ...

https://theconversation.com/what-do...bush-administrations-2002-steel-tariffs-90567

Anti dumping rules kick in after, but the US has CVDs (countervailing duties) as well as antidumping duties. CVDs don't require a finding of unfiar pricing and both are international agreed upon agreements. There's plenty to get them to "stop them from doing it again".

China doesn't even rank in the top 10 steel importers in the US (Canada - 16%, Brazil - 13%, South Korea - 10%, Mexico - 9%, Russia - 9%, Turkey - 7%, Japana - 5%, Taiwan - 4%, Germany - 3%, India - 2%), so why ask if I'm a "China apologist"? If you're worried about China, these tariffs aren't going to do much, if anything, to them.
https://www.trade.gov/steel/countries/pdfs/imports-us.pdf

History shows us something else (relating to the jobs in consuming industries). G.W Bush imposed tariffs between 8-30% on steel and 200,000 jobs were lost, along with a $4 billion hit to the economy. Steel producing insdustries employ around 140,000 people and around $36 billion in the economy each year (these are 2015 census numbers), but steel-consuming industries employ 6.5+ million people that add about $1 trillion to the economy. That's a 1:46 ratio (steel producing to steel consuming).

This is convoluting American made raw steel product vs. final end user consumer products made elsewhere using raw steel products not first imported into the US. ie. Bypassing the importation of steel by manufacturers in other counties that then import the final product whatever it is, from automobiles and trucks, to washing machines to toasters to coffee makers. As such, tariffs should be applied across the board on all items that use steel accordingly as a percentage of steel product in each item imported. See how easy it is to save American jobs?

Plus, steel mill jobs were declining before we started competing with China on steel.
https://www.commerce.gov/sites/comm...nal_security_-_with_redactions_-_20180111.pdf

Well of course. When manufacturers purchase their steel outside the US to manufacture goods in low paying labor countries, to be imported back into our country as a final product, that is to be a logical conclusion.

People in the industry chalked that up to innovation and consolidation of the industry. (The US still uses very old blast furnaces)
https://conexus.cberdata.org/files/MfgReality.pdf

Old blast furnaces work just fine.

There's never been, and never will be a free subsidy. We'll all pay a bit more for goods to save a few hundred jobs and if history shows us anything, we'll end up losing more jobs than those gained.

Not to mention the entire basis for these tariffs is misguided and simply bull####. (i.e. Section 232 - "National Security"). Followed by a Commerce Secretary that's pushing these tariffs who made huge amounts of money buying bankrupt steel companies the last time steel tariffs were imposed.
http://www.wnyc.org/story/wilbur-ross-extraordinary-timing/

Tariffs are not misguided. They funded the Federal government, (without income taxes), fully, in addition to excise taxes (on tobacco and alcohol), and sales of frontier land up until about 1914. So, it can be said, that we went from passive taxation via importation of goods, to taxing directly the production and labor of the American people to fund government.