Gimme that Ol' Time Religion...

[Hessian]

I might stir the pot a bit....

I moved from a general baptist church to a conservative fundamental Presbyterian back in my HS years...since then, I connected with Grace Brethren for over a decade,...only to see it shift more into a "contemporary" worship.I left when I saw them more concerned with marble, carpet, and comforts than the workers in the field (and their apathy towards Christian education). been attanding a wonderful evangelical traditional church for almost 4 yrs ...very pleased BUT;

THUS...my point...Is this the last generation to still experience and enjoy traditional worship? In 10 years we've seen camp fire choruses take over hymnals, Electric guitars replace organs, tee-shirts replace ties,and high tech slick power point projections replace decent three point sermons. AND THIS IS GOING ON IN MAIN-LINE EVANGELICAL DENOMINATIONS!
Emotionalism has swept aside liturgy.
At what point will our children learn things like reverence, awe, Fear of the Lord, dignity, humbleness? It certainly has been replaced by hug me, squeeze me, love me, nuzzle me make me feel comfortable! oh, and pass the plate, we need water jets and a $2000 painting of Jordan for the baptismal.
Blech!

"A Mighty Fortress is Our God a Bulwark never Failing,..."

....yuk, its so masculine,,,,like, like, what's a bulwark anyway?...there's no beat!

And thus the faith that sustained for 450 years is swept away.
DJS

 

[vraiblonde]

Direct from my pal the minister:

Since church, religion and God in general are going out of style, the churches are trying to become more "modern" to attract younger members.  That's why they're going toward that "church is cool" image.  As people started being more interested in "Melrose Place" than religion and feeling that God is an inhibitor to the pleasures in life, the churches had to do something to keep the membership up.  Which also is why you hear your pastor talk a lot less about sin and more about community programs.  

Consider it a marketing ploy and an evolutional process.

 

[Frank]

I think there's a tendency in American life to want to make religion solemn, and when it isn't, it's somehow lacking authenticity. This needn't be the case. While it's true that I basically *detest* some of the more folksy modern approaches to worship, it has nothing to do with any kind of attachment to the past - I just think it sounds awful.

Try to remember that at one time, many of the old hymns and old traditions were NEW. Hymns were sung to the tune of popular songs, and no one thought less of them. (This has always been true, going back to Old Testament days. Back then, and even up to a hundred years ago, there were a limited number of tunes that people knew and not a lot were written. So you'll find direction in the Psalms to sing it to the tune of [some named song]. That's also why many hymns and psalms have similar cadences, so they can be sung to many tunes. Try singing ANY hymn you know to the tune of the theme of "Gilligan's Island", for example).

 

[vraiblonde]

One of the problems with religion, as with anything else, is that the people who believe a certain way think everyone should believe that same way.  The "live and let live" mentality is definitely not alive and well in America.  For some reason, it upsets the solemn religions that the other folks seem to be having more fun.  And the more boisterous religions think the old time crowd are a bunch of fuddy-duddies.

Well, la-di-da!  This is America, land of the free and home of the brave.  We are free here to worship in whatever way we see fit.  Or not worship at all, if that's our bag.  If you want to live in a country where everyone must have the same opinions and do the same things, I'm sure Cuba or China would be happy to have you.

As humans, we are only really comfortable with people who are like us, with the same values, morals, religious/political beliefs, whatever.  Anyone who is different than us makes us confront our insecurities that maybe <b>they're</b> doing it right and we aren't.  And since we don't like to confront our insecurities, we don't like to be around anyone who is different.  Simple, really, and basic human behavior.  Otherwise, why would we care what other people are doing unless it directly affects us personally?

 

[valentino]

While I may not agree on the idea of going to church, and that being a good thing, except for the sense of community, I do agree that the church as a whole has become even more greedy.  It has always been this way, but the problem now is that they are losing contributors, so they need to do things to try and get people to give money once again.  I know that god wanted us to believe that he was everywhere, so why must we go to church, why must we tell our sins to some human, and why must we pay for multi-million dollar buildings to worship him.  I do not think he needs all of that, and if you are a true believer eventually you will see that.  You will also see that there are many other religious ideas that fit you as a person.  I personally have many different beliefs, that are mixed throughout many religions.  It is hard for me to explain that to others because they like things to be simple and routine, and cannot grasp things like believing in more that one religion.  I am always learning, and trying to expand my knowledge in this area, but for now, I am happy, and I do not think that my life is missing anything, and I definitely do not need to be "saved".

 

[daniel]

It is interesting that going to church has always been so important to different religions. Growing up Catholic and attending Catholic schools for 12 years i have been told over and over again how important it is to go to church and receive communion. Something was lost on me however and now I rarley attend. I still believe that it is important but not necessary. Church has been a place where communities gathered once a week, but it was more that just sitting in an uncomfortable pew for an hour. It was a time of sharing for communities. But attendence has dropped, people work harder and have less time and services are down to under an hour. Despite the quickness of these services they are more boring then ever. The only time I enjoyed a service was at St. Perer's. The congregation was so involved and emotions were high. The people who attended knew eachother and respected eachother. They were a tight community and it seemed like that was something every other Parrish I attended was missing. Perhaps if the Catholic church along with some others would stop condeming those who don't attend mass regularly the people will get more out of it. I can have a relationship with God on my own, as an educated person I can interpret the bible on my own, and I can confess my sins directly to God (there is no need for a middle man). Mass should be a celebration for people who hold similar values not a requirement or a place to be chastised. But this is only one of a few problems i have with the Catholic church and the even more Ultra Conservative faiths.

I apologize if this seems rambled, it is hard to put these sort of thoughts on paper.

 

[PmoneyandTT]

First let me reply in saying - God said come as you are. Whether you are rich - poor - fed - hungry - saved - or sinner.  He is not concerned about the outer shell of a man - he is only interested in his spirit.  Man - has made these traditions in church.  Totally wrong anyway.. The place of worship is a building - and the people make up the church or congregation.  Man is only concerned with fabulous marble buildings - statues things that look pretty.. You can have worship at your home.. If two or more people worship God together in one place - that is what God calls church.  

Man has always turned away people who don't seem to be what they want them to be.. NOT God.. He is like a doctor - sick people need healing - not well people..

Let me break it down this way..

Change Your Mind

When I was a child, I was taught that it is a women's prerogative to change her mind.  If you have become accustomed to a thought or habit you should get rid of, stop what you are doing and change your mind.  I know it isn't easy, but it is so necessary.  It will help you immeasurably to speak to yourself and say, "I am better than this!"  You don't have to change the other person's mind.  You just need to change your own.  Be careful what you get used to.  If you don't watch out, you can become accustomed to negative things, things the Father never wanted you to have, like pain or abuse.  Some people have become used to poverty.  Some have become used to fighting.  They feel at home in pain.  They cleave to it because they understand it.  Maybe you've made your life's goal to win someone you may never win. Or perhaps you've spent years trying to change the mind of someone who may not ever change.  The real victory occurs when you change your own mind.  The power of choice is a great power.  Be careful that you do not give that power away.  It is your right to choose how you want to live.  Even God respects that right.  He gives you that right.  Instead of asking an abuser if he has had enough, you must ask yourself if you have had enough.  This is always the greater question.  Others may not ever get their fill of abusing you.  If you have judged within yourself that abuse is not God's will for you, why are you asking someone else to choose?

With that example - you have to choose not have someone choose for you.

 

[Hessian]

I'm gonna bring it back to the topic...pattern of worship.
Let me try to build a case here:
*God is a God of order.
*God gave lengthy instructions to HIS people (Israel) in the OT as to how HE wanted to be worshipped!
*The NT church blended OT worship with new instructions.
* I & IICorinthians addresses a church who's worship went haywire & disorderly.

Why do modern evangelicals feel the need to entertain their congregations? Worship IS NOT ABOUT MAKING US FEEL HIP & ACCEPTABLE.
They used to say creeds in mainline churches...not as much any more! (What purpose did Creeds have?...to identify the core of commonly held essentials that All believers share) So, by inference can we say that evangelical churches have become confused as to what is "essential" and thus drop the creeds? or do the creeds remind them too much of Anglican/Catholic worship and thus avoid any hint of that?

POWERFUL THOUGHT...In the days after Columbine, a major memorial service was being held. Clinton was late (as usual) and while the somber music played..a kid bellowed out "Let's get the show on the road!!!"...laughter followed.

THIS is the mindset of people who were never taught awe, reverence, humility, and self control. Its not taught at home, at school, and now churches have also given up too--entertainment is far more important.
Veritas.

 

[Sharon]

Quote: from Hessian on 9:07 pm on Dec. 13, 2001[br]

Why do modern evangelicals feel the need to entertain their congregations? Worship IS NOT ABOUT MAKING US FEEL HIP & ACCEPTABLE.  THIS is the mindset of people who were never taught awe, reverence, humility, and self control. Its not taught at home, at school, and now churches have also given up too--entertainment is far more important.
Veritas.

Sad isn't it?  In most modern churches these days it's all about the money, anything to bring in the masses and most still don't reach budget.

 

[PmoneyandTT]

Well since tithing 10% of your income is a commandment from God himself.  We don't tithe to make the church richer - the purpose is for prospersity while on this earth.  God will take care of his true leaders of the church whether we tithe or not.  If your church isn't teaching you the purpose of tithing - then they are not giving you the whole gospel.  There is exactly 2350 scripture verses in the bible about finances.

 

[playwithme]

P$&TT - you seem to have alot of knowledge on things. Im not going to say I agree or disagree - because thats not why I am here.. But I have to give you a hands clap - because you believe in what you post - regardless of what others say or think.. Maybe if people stand their grounds on things - and stop trying to change everyone elses position in life - they would be alot happier.  When I read your post - I understand that your postings are not from you - but what you have read.  Most of us get our knowledge that way. Bravo - for not being afraid.

You are very committed to your cause - Learning something through life - strive in what you believe in - even if your the only one standing there..

Happy posting

 

[PmoneyandTT]

Hey Play

Thanks - I see you have been taken through the fire with this crowd.. They are tough. Don't worry, they don't seem to like newbies.. I think the human clone thing is way to touchy.  You can't even post anything without someone getting offended. Ken King doesn't know everything - don't let him fool you.. He is like an old dog with a big bark - but no teeth in his mouth.. A word of advice - don't get caught up in their games - you can explain it over and over again - and they will see it one way - their way. But they want you to accept how they see things. And degraded you in the process. I have learned just to say we agree to disagree. Enough said - but they want to go on and on.. And your right don't give them to much information - it will be used against you. Your young - full of life - be happy.. If noone else wants to be your somd. buddy - I will.. So have fun - and stick it to them good.

 

[playwithme]

Don't worry. I won't give any information about my family. I would be in big trouble. Even if Im 21.  My family lets me get away with anything - just not business issues. So I have to stay  low key and just play along with everyone.

I would like to know more about your God. We really never was taught those things while growing up.  I had a black roommate in college.  She was really cool and came from a christian background. She would give me booklets to read.  I never believed in anything. I just take life as its giving to me. I know there is a creator.  I just don't know that Jesus and all that other stuff.  Im glad there is someone out there that is willing to put the information out there - for people like me. I will read the other postings you placed - and I might even go to a christian book store to get some more information.  Thanks..

 

[valentino]

Hello play,

I think that you are an interesting person.  I would just like to say not to limit your knowledge only to learning about god or jesus.  There are so many other religions out there, and it seems like to truly understand a certain religion it is good to learn about many and then decide which one suits you.  I will say that I think you are somewhat lucky to not have been raised in one certain religion...leaving your options open now.  I was raised in the christian religion, but now I am basically just searching and learning all I can about other religions.  It is sometimes a hard process because many people feel that what they believe in is the only way, but you have to just keep searching.  It is completely up to you what religion you choose, I am just asking you to not limit your options.  Structure and guidance can be good, but following something blindly, and not living what you say you believe is not.  I think that it is great you have an eagerness to learn more...just take your time...life is a journey, and faith should follow the same path.  Good luck, and if you want some help with where to go for books or anything else, just let me know.

 

[SxyPrincess]

Does anyone know if "Play" is still around???

 

[Hessian]

Why?

Why is it that I can open a discussion on some of the internal problems of worship within evangelical churches and when someone expresses an interest in pursuing Christianity we have to endure a cynical agnostic trying to step in and prevent her from making a commitment to Christ.
I don't care if you burned out on religion Valentino...
I don't care if you despise Christianity...
but for crying out loud, don't try to steer someone into your lonely road of malaise and apathy and gnosticism when they might be seeking some straight-forward answers.

Your road is so broad that nothing's right, nothing's wrong (except for those narrow-minded bigots called sanctimonious evangelicals...they are really wrong about everything aren't they!!!)...but your road is also very empty...and depressing!

Why not start you own topic on the pointlessness of life?

 

[valentino]

Hessian

I was not talking to you, so why don't you just let people make up their own minds about things.  It is funny that you have something to say about everyone else, but make no claims that you yourself might not be perfect.  All I was trying to say was that she should explore her options.  I never said anything about not following christ.  I am of the feeling that to truly have faith you must at least understand other faiths.  I have never told anyone not to do anything.  Do you honestly feel that every religion but yours is evil?  Why don't you start a forum about how miserable you are since you seem to like to find a problem with EVERYTHING.  Or, better yet, just stop whining so much, the world does not revolve around you, no matter what your parents told you.

(Edited by valentino at 1:21 pm on Jan. 11, 2002)