An Incredible Victory

PsyOps

Pixelated
:bigwhoop:
And the senate and presidency were retained by the dems who passed Obamacare. We had the mandate argument before, and the people who represent more constituents are the dems. If there was a mandate they had it.


Besides, the teaparty tried and failed to repeal Obamacare again and again. They did nothing to further that cause by shutting down the government. Everyone already knew where they stood. This was a stunt plain and simple, one that was doomed to fail.

It's funny now that the stunt has failed some people are still trying to defend those who held out for nothing. You do realize that our "fiscally conservative" brethren just gave hundreds of thousands of government workers two weeks extra paid vacation. Yeah, that helped. :sarcasm:
Standing on your principles and doing the work of your constituents does not require a mandate. It doesn’t even require a majority. It only requires that you do what you think is the right thing. If I was the only person that got elected into congress under the premise defeating a specific law I would make that my living task, even if the odds against me were insurmountable. I would stand my ground for the sake of my constituents. I’d be called a fool. I’d be called a radical. I’d be called all sorts of things; but in the eyes of the people that elected me I’d be RIGHT! That’s all that matters. Cowered to the odds is nothing more than doing what this congress has been doing for decades; the status quo – what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

There is no point in being there if they aren’t going to fight for what their constituent demand of them. They aren’t there to pander to a majority they disagree with. I defend Cruz because 1) he stood his ground despite the odds and 2) because I think he was right.

On principle, did Cruz lose because of the odds or did he lose because he was wrong on the issue?
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
Standing on your principles and doing the work of your constituents does not require a mandate. It doesn’t even require a majority. It only requires that you do what you think is the right thing. If I was the only person that got elected into congress under the premise defeating a specific law I would make that my living task, even if the odds against me were insurmountable. I would stand my ground for the sake of my constituents. I’d be called a fool. I’d be called a radical. I’d be called all sorts of things; but in the eyes of the people that elected me I’d be RIGHT! That’s all that matters. Cowered to the odds is nothing more than doing what this congress has been doing for decades; the status quo – what has gotten us into this mess in the first place.

There is no point in being there if they aren’t going to fight for what their constituent demand of them. They aren’t there to pander to a majority they disagree with. I defend Cruz because 1) he stood his ground despite the odds and 2) because I think he was right.

On principle, did Cruz lose because of the odds or did he lose because he was wrong on the issue?
Cruz didn't do anything to be blamed for. He is in the senate. He would have been wrong if he stood in the way of keeping the government open knowing that he couldn't get the votes, but he didn't. He postured and rallied the troops while he had little to lose.


The house on the other hand tried and failed to repeal Obamacare numerous times. They fought the fight, they stood on their principles, they lost, and then they screwed us all by forcing a shutdown. There was no reason for a shutdown and there was no positive outcome. Hundreds of thousands of civil servants got an extra two weeks of paid vacation. That's as close as you get to a positive. Unless you consider boehner looking weak and the house dysfunctional a positive : yay:
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Cruz didn't do anything to be blamed for. He is in the senate. He would have been wrong if he stood in the way of keeping the government open knowing that he couldn't get the votes, but he didn't. He postured and rallied the troops while he had little to lose.


The house on the other hand tried and failed to repeal Obamacare numerous times. They fought the fight, they stood on their principles, they lost, and then they screwed us all by forcing a shutdown. There was no reason for a shutdown and there was no positive outcome. Hundreds of thousands of civil servants got an extra two weeks of paid vacation. That's as close as you get to a positive. Unless you consider boehner looking weak and the house dysfunctional a positive : yay:
Your argument has been the validity of something based on whether it will be a success or a failure. My argument is premised on whether you’re doing it based on your principles. But Cruz didn’t shut down the government. The house proposed a budget that the senate didn’t like; that’s what shut the government down. The two sides couldn’t come to an agreement. You blame the GOP for offering up a bill they knew the democrats wouldn’t agree to. I blame both. Neither side would yield. Finally the GOP gave in to the democrats. They gave it a good fight. Personally I think these kinds of things are good for America in the sense that it brings attention to things that are real problems in our government. Not the disagreements, but the issues and the principles behind those issues.

The government, to a degree, came to a stop. The country didn’t stop moving. People still went shopping. The malls were still busy. People still continued to travel. Your internet didn’t shut down. You continued to post in here as normal. Your life didn’t appear to have changed one bit. We all survived.

So who really got screwed? No one! That whole “they screwed us all” is just plain :bs:

Where we are screwed is Obamacare survived. Even you have admitted you'd repeal it. Thank you democrats for that!
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
Your argument has been the validity of something based on whether it will be a success or a failure. My argument is premised on whether you’re doing it based on your principles. But Cruz didn’t shut down the government. The house proposed a budget that the senate didn’t like; that’s what shut the government down. The two sides couldn’t come to an agreement. You blame the GOP for offering up a bill they knew the democrats wouldn’t agree to. I blame both. Neither side would yield. Finally the GOP gave in to the democrats. They gave it a good fight. Personally I think these kinds of things are good for America in the sense that it brings attention to things that are real problems in our government. Not the disagreements, but the issues and the principles behind those issues.

The government, to a degree, came to a stop. The country didn’t stop moving. People still went shopping. The malls were still busy. People still continued to travel. Your internet didn’t shut down. You continued to post in here as normal. Your life didn’t appear to have changed one bit. We all survived.

So who really got screwed? No one! That whole “they screwed us all” is just plain :bs:

Where we are screwed is Obamacare survived. Even you have admitted you'd repeal it. Thank you democrats for that!
Yep, I thank the left for the impending disaster of Obamacare. But I thank the right for the shutdown. It was the right who tied Obamacare to the cr. They deserve the blame.

As for screwing us, I am a fiscal conservative. I take exception to the people who claim to be the same playing games that costs the tax payer on the order of billions of dollars. How does wasting money while chasing a fools errand rank in their "principles"?
How much did this shutdown cost each American? How much do you think is a reasonable amount for reps to waste in the name of their principles?
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Yep, I thank the left for the impending disaster of Obamacare. But I thank the right for the shutdown. It was the right who tied Obamacare to the cr. They deserve the blame.
Obamacare required to be part of the funding in the CR. The house gave the democrats EVERYTHING they wanted except that one thing – ONE THING! And the dems rejected it. Sure it’s their baby; just as much as it’s the anti-baby for the GOP.

As for screwing us, I am a fiscal conservative. I take exception to the people who claim to be the same playing games that costs the tax payer on the order of billions of dollars. How does wasting money while chasing a fools errand rank in their "principles"?
How much did this shutdown cost each American? How much do you think is a reasonable amount for reps to waste in the name of their principles?
The government, on a daily basis, is replete with massive waste. So, I say a big ‘so what’ to that. If you are the ‘fiscal conservative’ you claim to be, you’d know the experiment that is ‘Obamacare’ is an enormous waste of our dollars. As a so-called ‘fiscal conservative’ you call it a fool’s errand to do everything you can to abolish such waste?

Only about 20% of the government was actually shut down. And those were all non-essential functions. Lost money is estimated at around $24 billion. Based on fiscal ’14 budget ($6.5 trillion) that is 0.3% of the total budget. You’ve heard the phrase ‘drop in the bucket’. Nevertheless, is it waste.

You’re going to get all :jameo: over this bit of waste while colossal waste of our dollars occurs every day. Heck, I believe Obama spends more in one year flying around on AF1 than was lost in this shutdown. But you failed to show where anyone was actually ‘screwed’ by this shutdown (except maybe our vets trying to visit the war memorials in DC; which I unequivocally blame on Obama). You’ve only showed that government did what it does on a daily basis; waste our money. Everyone’s lives went on as normal. No one was screwed. No one was unable to buy groceries or had their cell phone service shut off because of the shutdown. Folks that love Sunday NFL football was still able to sit on their couches with their nachos and beer and watch their game. Folks were at the malls shopping, eating at restaurants, driving on our roads consuming fuel, enjoying the beaches, hitting the bars… life went on and no one was screwed. And now the holidays are coming and folks will quickly forget it ever happened. That is, until Jan 15. Then you get to come on here and moan about the evil GOP once again shutting down the government; while staying silent about the pending disaster about to hit – no… SCREW – every single American. As a so-called ‘fiscal conservative’ you sure have some strange fiscal priorities.
 
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Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
Obamacare required to be part of the funding in the CR. The house gave the democrats EVERYTHING they wanted except that one thing – ONE THING! And the dems rejected it. Sure it’s their baby; just as much as it’s the anti-baby for the GOP.



The government, on a daily basis, is replete with massive waste. So, I say a big ‘so what’ to that. If you are the ‘fiscal conservative’ you claim to be, you’d know the experiment that is ‘Obamacare’ is an enormous waste of our dollars. As a so-called ‘fiscal conservative’ you call it a fool’s errand to do everything you can to abolish such waste?

Only about 20% of the government was actually shut down. And those were all non-essential functions. Lost money is estimated at around $24 billion. Based on fiscal ’14 budget ($6.5 trillion) that is 0.3% of the total budget. You’ve heard the phrase ‘drop in the bucket’. Nevertheless, is it waste.

You’re going to get all :jameo: over this bit of waste while colossal waste of our dollars occurs every day. Heck, I believe Obama spends more in one year flying around on AF1 than was lost in this shutdown. But you failed to show where anyone was actually ‘screwed’ by this shutdown (except maybe our vets trying to visit the war memorials in DC; which I unequivocally blame on Obama). You’ve only showed that government did what it does on a daily basis; waste our money. Everyone’s lives went on as normal. No one was screwed. No one was unable to buy groceries or had their cell phone service shut off because of the shutdown. Folks that love Sunday NFL football was still able to sit on their couches with their nachos and beer and watch their game. Folks were at the malls shopping, eating at restaurants, driving on our roads consuming fuel, enjoying the beaches, hitting the bars… life went on and no one was screwed. And now the holidays are coming and folks will quickly forget it ever happened. That is, until Jan 15. Then you get to come on here and moan about the evil GOP once again shutting down the government; while staying silent about the pending disaster about to hit – no… SCREW – every single American. As a so-called ‘fiscal conservative’ you sure have some strange fiscal priorities.
No, it wasn't. Obamacare was already funded, that's why it was largely unaffected by the shutdown. The cr included defunding language. That is different than just not funding. You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what went down.....
Republicans tied the cr to defunding Obamacare
Republicans forced a shutdown
Republicans wasted billions
Republicans bear the responsibility

I have been far from silent on Obamacare. I have stated again and again that i think it will be a disaster. That you choose not to hear it isn't my fault.

As for that last part, I throw it right back at you. 24 Billion is a lot of money to waste for nothing. You sure show a lack of priorities if you think that was a proper expenditure of our money. Besides, those are probably just the direct costs. I am willing to bet the real figure is much higher when you consider all the impacts.
Like i said before you guys would have been pointing the finger at Reid if he had refused to call a vote on a measure that would have ended the shutdown, instead you defended boehner. You would rail the left if they had wasted $24B but you call it a drop in the bucket when the right does it. :shrug:
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what went down.....
Republicans tied the cr to defunding Obamacare
Republicans forced a shutdown
Republicans wasted billions
Republicans bear the responsibility
I don't have a fundamental misunderstanding about anything. This whole thing is a matter of political perspective. If you are on the left (which is where I see you on almost every issue) you will blame the right. If you are on the right you will blame the left. So...

Let's word this a little differently:

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what went down.....
Republicans tied the cr to defunding Obamacare because their constituents demanded it. The left refused to even entertain the idea.
Because the left refused to negotiate on Obamacare they forced a shutdown
Democrats wasted billions
Both bear the responsibility

See how that works? :yay:

And let’s take another perspective on this… According to law, who is responsible for proposing a budget? The president. Why is the president not proposing a budget? Who does the president send that proposal to? The senate. Why is the senate not drafting up and passing a budget? Why are we dealing with continuing resolutions rather than actual budgets that would force this undisciplined government to actually spend within their means? Who do you blame for this?
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
I don't have a fundamental misunderstanding about anything. This whole thing is a matter of political perspective. If you are on the left (which is where I see you on almost every issue) you will blame the right. If you are on the right you will blame the left. So...

Let's word this a little differently:

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what went down.....
Republicans tied the cr to defunding Obamacare because their constituents demanded it. The left refused to even entertain the idea.
Because the left refused to negotiate on Obamacare they forced a shutdown
Democrats wasted billions
Both bear the responsibility

See how that works? :yay:

And let’s take another perspective on this… According to law, who is responsible for proposing a budget? The president. Why is the president not proposing a budget? Who does the president send that proposal to? The senate. Why is the senate not drafting up and passing a budget? Why are we dealing with continuing resolutions rather than actual budgets that would force this undisciplined government to actually spend within their means? Who do you blame for this?
Apparently you live in an alternate reality. The issue at hand, the shutdown was forced by the right. Even in your "version" they are the ones who tied the CR to Obamacare.


As for the budget, the president has presented one in each if his terms as far as I know. I didn't check for this year, but he did every other year. He presents those to the house, who are responsible for initiating all appropriations bills. The house and senate haven't agreed on one in years.
The congress holds shared responsibility for that.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
The issue at hand, the shutdown was forced by the right.
You are correct that the shutdown was forced by the right. Had they just let the Dems have their way on everything and run amok, there would have been no shutdown.

What you are missing is that their constituents WANTED that. We are not a democracy, we are a representative republic and all citizens are supposed to have a say in their government; we send our Congresscritters to Washington in order to preserve that ideal. Otherwise we might as well be a monarchy, which is a system we fought a war over to get rid of.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
You are correct that the shutdown was forced by the right. Had they just let the Dems have their way on everything and run amok, there would have been no shutdown.

What you are missing is that their constituents WANTED that. We are not a democracy, we are a representative republic and all citizens are supposed to have a say in their government; we send our Congresscritters to Washington in order to preserve that ideal. Otherwise we might as well be a monarchy, which is a system we fought a war over to get rid of.
For people like Rider it’s about blame rather than recognizing our representatives are elected to do the bidding of their constituents. Not doing so results in losing the next election and a breakdown of the system. And this is what most of our representatives are doing on a daily basis anyway; thwarting the will of their constituents. This is far more damaging to THE PEOPLE than any shutdown.
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
Apparently you live in an alternate reality. The issue at hand, the shutdown was forced by the right. Even in your "version" they are the ones who tied the CR to Obamacare.


As for the budget, the president has presented one in each if his terms as far as I know. I didn't check for this year, but he did every other year. He presents those to the house, who are responsible for initiating all appropriations bills. The house and senate haven't agreed on one in years.
The congress holds shared responsibility for that.
You see the issue at hand as the shutdown. The shutdown is a symptom of the disagreement over a major ideal. The shutdown is temporary and will have little effect as compared to allowing Obamacare to fully implement; which you admit you want repealed. So, on principle, it makes far more sense to fight the battle of long term damage than worry about the short term damage by some shutdown that really hurt no one.

As far as budgets go, this how one of them went:

  • Obama proposed a budget to the house and senate.
  • The senate rejected the budget.
  • The house recognized their duty under the law to pass a budget.
  • They passed a budget (called the Ryan Budget)
  • Democrats rejected that budget, STILL without passing their own budget.
Democrats in the senate, as far as I know have yet to pass a budget since Obama has been in office. The house has offered several which the senate rejects.

So what do YOU take away from this?

Budget process:

The current federal budget law (31 U.S.C. 1105(a)) requires that the President submit the budget between the first Monday in January and the first Monday in February.

The President's budget submission is referred to the House and Senate Budget Committees and to the CBO.

In March, the budget committees consider the President's budget proposals in the light of the CBO budget report, and each committee submits a budget resolution to its house by April 1. The House and Senate each consider these budget resolutions and are expected to pass them, possibly with amendments, by April 15.

After both houses pass a budget resolution, selected Representatives and Senators negotiate a conference report to reconcile differences between the House and the Senate versions. The conference report, in order to become binding, must be approved by both the House and Senate. A budget resolution is a concurrent resolution that binds Congress, but is not a law, and so does not require the President's signature.
 
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Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
For people like Rider it’s about blame rather than recognizing our representatives are elected to do the bidding of their constituents. Not doing so results in losing the next election and a breakdown of the system. And this is what most of our representatives are doing on a daily basis anyway; thwarting the will of their constituents. This is far more damaging to THE PEOPLE than any shutdown.
It's not about blame, it's about reality.

As we have gone over numerous times, if the tea party was meant to do the bidding of those who elected them, so was Reid and the senate, and Obama for that matter. When you look at it that way, as you keep insisting to, the left has the numbers. They represent more constituents.

What is really funny is that you and a bunch of other forumites would be doing nothing but blame Obama for this, or Reid, if it was possible. Many of YOU are doing it, but then you say others are interested in playing the blame game :buddies:
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
It's not about blame, it's about reality.

As we have gone over numerous times, if the tea party was meant to do the bidding of those who elected them, so was Reid and the senate, and Obama for that matter. When you look at it that way, as you keep insisting to, the left has the numbers. They represent more constituents.

What is really funny is that you and a bunch of other forumites would be doing nothing but blame Obama for this, or Reid, if it was possible. Many of YOU are doing it, but then you say others are interested in playing the blame game :buddies:
And as I have been trying to tell you, it doesn’t much matter what the numbers are; the numbers (as you like to put it) does not demand anyone push their principles aside. Obamacare is the issue. Republicans took control over the house because of that cancer. I, as a conservative, demand they fight against it until they can’t anymore. If it means shutting the government down, so be it. As I stated, far less damage will be done to this country with a shutdown than having to deal with Obamacare long-term.

And I have stated over and over, as far as the shutdown goes, I blame both sides. Actually, I give both sides credit for standing their ground. Ultimately I have been consistent in blaming voters for putting this band of misfits in our government. You, and your odd sense of conservatism, consistently blame the GOP for nearly everything.
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
And as I have been trying to tell you, it doesn’t much matter what the numbers are; the numbers (as you like to put it) does not demand anyone push their principles aside. Obamacare is the issue. Republicans took control over the house because of that cancer. I, as a conservative, demand they fight against it until they can’t anymore. If it means shutting the government down, so be it. As I stated, far less damage will be done to this country with a shutdown than having to deal with Obamacare long-term.

And I have stated over and over, as far as the shutdown goes, I blame both sides. Actually, I give both sides credit for standing their ground. Ultimately I have been consistent in blaming voters for putting this band of misfits in our government. You, and your odd sense of conservatism, consistently blame the GOP for nearly everything.
I just don't make excuses when the GOP is to blame. You guys have that end covered.

The numbers is how the system works. The number of votes to pass both the house and senate is what allows a bill to pass. If you don't have the numbers you aren't using the system according to the constitution.

The Obamacare fight was lost, and it will remain that way until the numbers in the house and senate change. That's how the system works, no matter how bad you want it to work in your favor right now, it doesn't. Stop acting like children and use the system as intended. This shutdown was nothing more than a tantrum thrown by people, like you, who couldn't get their way right now. I for one am glad it's over for now.
 

ylexot

Super Genius
The numbers is how the system works. The number of votes to pass both the house and senate is what allows a bill to pass. If you don't have the numbers you aren't using the system according to the constitution.
Really? The Constitution says to only have a vote if everyone knows the bill will pass? Or maybe it says not to have a vote if you know the other house/president won't pass it? I must have missed that part.
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
Really? The Constitution says to only have a vote if everyone knows the bill will pass? Or maybe it says not to have a vote if you know the other house/president won't pass it? I must have missed that part.
They had their votes, again and again. How many times do you get told no before you understand that the other house won't go for defunding Obamacare? I don't see anything in the constitution about forcing a government shutdown because you can't legitimately pass the legislation you want.

The congress was set up the way it is for a reason. Specifically the senate has longer terms in large part to ensure "stability" in the legislative branch.
 

BigBlue

New Member
For people like Rider it’s about blame.


BS !!! All of you sound like little babies , their is a blame game because the Republican party does not want voters to know who it was that tried to take down their country .All the crying by the republicans and then the infighting in the republican party ,really? The American people know who to blame , the Dems will remind them of that over and over .I say thank you Mr cruz he alone has killed the republican party in the next mid term election , again thanks !:killingme
 

PsyOps

Pixelated
BS !!! All of you sound like little babies , their is a blame game because the Republican party does not want voters to know who it was that tried to take down their country .All the crying by the republicans and then the infighting in the republican party ,really? The American people know who to blame , the Dems will remind them of that over and over .I say thank you Mr cruz he alone has killed the republican party in the next mid term election , again thanks !:killingme
:yawn:
 
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