Anti-War or Anti-America???

wmburdette

9/11 - Never Forget!
See Cliff Kincaid's take on the weekend protests in Washington. Note the two picture sets #1 and #2.

A picture speaks a thousand words. Here are a few taken at the "anti-war" protest (Picture Set #1, Picture Set #2). The U.S. and Israel were the main enemies. The heroes were Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro. There were some dupes in attendance but the leaders know exactly what they are doing. Our media pretend not to understand. What was happening was a classic communist trick – manipulating people through front organizations. The Workers World Party was there, but so was International ANSWER. They had separate tables but are not really separate groups.

Edited to spell Mr. Kincaid's name correctly. -wmb
 
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Lenny

Lovin' being Texican
wmburdette said:


It appears that the cost of entry for any disenfranchised group to participate in this bi-annual group-grope is to say you're anti-war. Remember that this protest was originally against the World Bank but has morphed into something for those who never outgrew the "protest the Man" throwbacks of the '60's and their spawn.
 

Bustem' Down

Give Peas a Chance
Socialism is an ideal that doesn't work because of human greed. I wouldn't say that they are anti-America, they love the country enough to want to change it to something they think is better, they just are anti establishment.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
I'm currently reading "1776", and loudly encourage all to do likewise. It's wonderful.

But one thing rings true in every reading I find regarding our war for independence, and again, in recent readings I've had over the Vietnam War.....

With WW2 being an exception, all wars we have fought have been *VERY* unpopular, especially when they last a long time. This is often true in many democracies. But there are some interesting comparisons with the two wars I mentioned.

The war for independence, or Revolutionary War, was HUGELY unpopular in different segments of the country. The popularly accepted division of support purported by historians is that a third of the nation were fiercely Loyalist, a third fiercely Rebel or Patriot, and a third largely indifferent to either cause. Being Loyalist wasn't just "being against the War". It meant actively *HELPING* the enemy, England - spying for them, supplying them, and fighting for them. To them, the nation was being overrurn by idiotic ingrates, greedy morons, religious nutjobs, drunks -- they'd have run to Canada had it really existed much back then (historically, most of what they called "Upper Canada" was settled after the war by people who did just that - LEFT the United States).

And that's not to say the support, or lack of it, was evenly distributed. With the exception of New England, and Philadelphia, the major cities had very large Loyalist support, especially New York, and the South. To read this book, you get the notion I ALWAYS get when I read about that era - how in God's name did we ever *win*? We were poorly supplied, vastly outnumbered by a highly trained army - the world's most powerful. Our navy was non-existent, and we were being undermined by OUR OWN PEOPLE.

How did we win?

All of the other reasons aside - catching Cornwallis at Yorktown, guerrilla tactics, steely resolve, crafty commanders and some outstanding bravery - the largest reason I can still find after reading about it for many many years - we outlasted them. The English people just didn't want to fight it any more. It was a war that was *supposed* to be very brief - at the onset, it was bragged that the whole continent could be subdued with a mere 5,000 men. When it dragged on year after year, the world's most powerful nation simply gave up fighting us. We wore them out.

Fast forward to the Vietnam era. Almost every one who knows much about this war knows at least two or three crucial facts. One is, we didn't lose a major battle from beginning to end. It was long, but - we were winning the entire war - not unlike the English. Another is that while the Tet offensive was broadly described as a crushing defeat, it wasn't - at least, not for US - it WAS for the North Vietnamese. We beat the snot out of them. They were never the same after that. They beat us by outlasting us - as we had the most powerful nation on Earth nearly 200 years earlier. WE were beaten, because it became unpopular at home. Yes, we were beaten for a lot of other reasons, but the largest was, we just didn't want to pursue the fight any further. We left, they took over, killed millions, and it's Communist to this day.

The parallels just seem too striking to me - that a nation as powerful as ours can be beaten simply by two things - having the resolve to pursue the conflict longer than your enemy - making them blink first. And by engaging or profiting by a campaign to gin up the horrors of the war. While almost every war has been unpopular, the casualties in this war, while tragic, have been absurdly light, especially in light of the SCOPE of it - in a couple years, we've lost less men than often fell in just HOURS of some of our worst conflicts. It's simply astonishing - I mean, we have whole days without fatalities - who has ever heard of a war where that happens?

I hate war, as almost anyone who's ever been in one (I haven't) also does. And the decision to GO to war should never be taken lightly - it will be paid for in blood. It will not cost us "billions", but human lives. This is why it is horrible. That's why it should be avoided. It's horrific and gruesome.

And that is why it should NEVER be engaged in unless you possess the will to complete it. It's kind of like when you choose to raise children - you don't toss them out once they get big enough to really ruin your life - it's too late then. You're screwed. It becomes a matter of "you should have thought of this before you got involved".

To leave Iraq now, without completing the mission does several things. It profanes and dishonors those who gave their lives already - it means their lives were wasted over a hasty decision. While there are those who ALREADY believe it was hasty to begin with, leaving now makes that situation worse - it can only BE worse already if the mission cannot be won. Try to imagine the brave souls who gave their lives in pursuit of civil rights - only for their leaders to just give up the cause, and shrug it all off. All those who died before died bravely, because they believed their cause would win, eventually. Had the mission been abandoned - their deaths were for naught.

That's the first reason.

The second is, it tells the world - the United States has no will to fight a real war. It's open season on Americans. You might as well cancel your overseas travel plans, because a target has been painted on your azz. Running tail now just means the fight will get *worse*.

And the last is what everyone knows - we can't leave Iraq in chaos, to dissolve into civil war. If we left now, we might as well hand out cyanide pills to everyone, because a LOT of them are going to die. Iraq is a nation which is geographically MOSTLY peaceful - but will plunder into nationwide civil conflict should the thugs we're facing get the upper hand.

I honestly fear we can't do what we want to do. The Iraqi people do not show the kind of resolve that say, the Poles did when facing the Russians, the Nazis and the Communists. They don't seem to want it bad enough. It's a sad day if WE want a free Iraq more than they do themselves. A free democratic Iraq would totally transform all of the Middle East - but after decades of repression, war and dictatorship - I think the fight has been beaten out of them. I don't believe they possess the will. I fear we can't exit this gracefully.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
Bustem' Down said:
I wouldn't say that they are anti-America, they love the country enough to want to change it to something they think is better, they just are anti establishment.
I think for personal reasons, they also identify with the little guy against the big guy. They are anti-establishment because they see all establishment as the big guy. Rightly or wrongly, they see the US as acting like a bully. They aren't necessarily socialists, although the little-guy-big-guy view of the world fits neatly with Marxist theory.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/16/AR2005091601870.html

I missed this when it appeared the first time. I'm convinved that Chavez, like Castro, is trying to make himself look like the little guy in order to sway the opinions of US lefties.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Bustem' Down said:
Socialism is an ideal that doesn't work because of human greed. I wouldn't say that they are anti-America, they love the country enough to want to change it to something they think is better, they just are anti establishment.
I'd say Socialism doesn't work because it simply goes against normal humanity. It requires hive-thinking, a herd mentality - and people aren't wired that way. It rewards mediocrity and punishes initiative and ambition. We're wired for conflict and competition. For it to work properly, the majority has to cooperate always, be trustworthy and honest - and be completely altruistic at all times. Which is why nearly everywhere it's been implemented, it hasn't worked. Call it 'greed' if you wish. I think it's just our nature to want to strive, succeed and work for what we get. To 'win'. Socialism is watching a game where nobody is allowed to lose. As long as ONE person wants to win - and there'll always be one - it can't work. It's Harrison Bergeron kind of stuff. Human equality is an fanciful idea that needs to be taken out and shot.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
SamSpade said:
It's Harrison Bergeron kind of stuff. Human equality is an fanciful idea that needs to be taken out and shot.
Who is Bergeron? Harlan Ellison once said something similar--"you give people freedom and they don't need equality." The only equality I favor is in the legal sense, such as no Jim Crow-type laws. While I don't believe that big goverment is inherently socialistic, I do believe that big government hinders individual freedom, often unintentionally.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
SamSpade said:
... It rewards mediocrity and punishes initiative and ambition. ....
Like the welfare programs and "redistribute the wealth" tax systems we have. Socialism is alive and well in the United States.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
Who is Bergeron? Harlan Ellison once said something similar--"you give people freedom and they don't need equality." The only equality I favor is in the legal sense, such as no Jim Crow-type laws. While I don't believe that big goverment is inherently socialistic, I do believe that big government hinders individual freedom, often unintentionally.
"Harrison Bergeron" is a Kurt Vonnegut satire about a world where everyone is MADE equal - strong people are weighted down with chains, intelligent people have devices in their heads to distract them constantly. A Google on it will bring the whole story up - it's not long.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
SamSpade said:
"Harrison Bergeron" is a Kurt Vonnegut satire about a world where everyone is MADE equal...
I've only read "Breakfast of Champions" and I didn't like it. What other Vonnegut do you recommend?
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
SamSpade said:
They beat us by outlasting us - as we had the most powerful nation on Earth nearly 200 years earlier. WE were beaten, because it became unpopular at home. Yes, we were beaten for a lot of other reasons, but the largest was, we just didn't want to pursue the fight any further. We left, they took over, killed millions, and it's Communist to this day.

A couple of points. First, the war in Vietnam didn't become unpopular, it was made unpopular by a determined effort by the Soviet Union. The Soviets funded in large part or small most every anti-war group that was active in the United States. Communist sympathizers and active agents had major roles in the suppossed "grass roots" efforts to stop the war, and lesser sympathizers, many of them in the protests today, and those in the media and entertainment fields did their part too. This effort was supported to the level it was not in order to stop the war, but to help the North Vietnamese win, and that's a huge difference. During WWII the Germans and the Soviets tried the same things, but back then we would arrest them and charge them with sedition, so the plans didn't work. Now we hand out awards and invite these people to give pronouncements on TV shows.

My second point is that we have to accept as Americans that our fundamental view towards our country and our freedoms has changed considerably over the years. A big part of the reason that the Japanese had the moxie to attack us was that they thought Americans were so worried about their own well being that we would be too afraid to fight. They were wrong, but that was in the 1940s. I think that we have now become the country that the Japanese saw in 1941. We have people who don't want to join the military and fight for their country anymore because they no longer have a sense that our country's freedoms and blessings need to be fought for, we are all now entitled to them, free of charge. We now have military commanders who are more worried about risking their careers than winning battles, and political leaders who are more worried about criticism from the opposing political party than they are about winning a war.

Maybe it's time we reinstated the draft and did away with the volunteer, corporate, military. One lesson that history has taught us is that you're much more willing to take risks when you don't care about losing something, and military leaders who are there to do their duty and not manage a career are more effective in combat that someone who's worried about how their next action will effect their promotion opportunities ten years down the road.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
I've only read "Breakfast of Champions" and I didn't like it. What other Vonnegut do you recommend?
Those are probably the only two I really know much about - my niece loves Vonnegut and has read probably everything he's ever written. "Harrison" has the good fortune of being very short.

The only other one I know much of is his second novel, the Sirens of Titan. It reads a lot like a Douglas Adams book (Hitchhiker's Guide, Dirk Gently) where a nearly omnipotent being needs a part for his spaceship and so manipulates human development on Earth from caveman to the present so it can build the part for him.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Bruzilla said:
A couple of points. First, the war in Vietnam didn't become unpopular, it was made unpopular by a determined effort by the Soviet Union..
And the North Vietnamese, as well. Yep, know that. In the end, it lost in popularity - they *succeeded*.

I AM very disturbed, and always have been, by the fact that some of these anti-war protesters are just World Bank protesters with the serial numbers stripped off. Why does anyone listen to these guys?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
SamSpade said:
Why does anyone listen to these guys?
I can answer that. Because people are searching for meaning in their lives and they think this is the way to get it. Everyone likes to be a part of something - they join churches, they join business organizations, they join their PTA. It fulfills a need in them to be "doing something" that they feel is important and can define their lives.

In the case of the anti-war crowd, just look at them. We're not talking about poverty-stricken people who are busy trying to eke out a living - or even scam the welfare system. Every protester they show is either middle-aged and affluent or a young college kid. You don't see a single protester wearing Salvation Army clothing.

I suspect it's the same with all these celebrities and their anti-war crap, coupled with their weird religions - they have these empty lives that they're trying to fill. Trying to find something to "stand for", as it were.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
2ndAmendment said:
Like the welfare programs and "redistribute the wealth" tax systems we have. Socialism is alive and well in the United States.
The main reason I don't like welfare is it because it destroys the human spirit. It fosters a sense of hopelessness and dependency.

Also, I think welfare actually perpetuates racial stereotypes. People who believe that blacks are genetically lazy use the existence of welfare to justify that belief. They don't see that welfare's destruction of the human spirit affects all its recipients to some degree.
 

2ndAmendment

Just a forgiven sinner
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
The main reason I don't like welfare is it because it destroys the human spirit. It fosters a sense of hopelessness and dependency.

Also, I think welfare actually perpetuates racial stereotypes. People who believe that blacks are genetically lazy use the existence of welfare to justify that belief. They don't see that welfare's destruction of the human spirit affects all its recipients to some degree.
No argument from me. Welfare is unconstitutional at the Federal level, too.
 

SamSpade

Well-Known Member
PREMO Member
Tonio said:
The main reason I don't like welfare is it because it destroys the human spirit. It fosters a sense of hopelessness and dependency.
When I was unemployed a couple years back, I was miserable for six months. If I'd known I was going to get a decent job at the end of it, I would have been celebrating a six-month vacation - but the truth was, the uncertainty of it all made me constantly fear I was going to lose everything I had - my house, my car, my possessions. The money they gave me wasn't enough to minimally cover my bills.

There's no question in my mind that I would have WORKED for that money if they were willing to give me just a little bit more, to cover my expenses. Sitting at home was draining me of all desire to do anything. I was sometimes too depressed to get out of bed. I was even taking Zoloft for a while.

I am sure others on the govt dole feel this way too - it drains you of every impulse to do anything.
 

Tonio

Asperger's Poster Child
This article covers some of the same ground as Cliff Kincaid's:

The phony peaceniks who protested in Washington
Here is how the New York Times (after a front-page and an inside headline, one of them reading "Speaking Up Against War" and one of them reading "Antiwar Rallies Staged in Washington and Other Cities") described the two constituenciess of the event:

The protests were largely sponsored by two groups, the Answer Coalition, which embodies a wide range of progressive political objectives, and United for Peace and Justice, which has a more narrow, antiwar focus.

The name of the reporter on this story was Michael Janofsky. I suppose that it is possible that he has never before come across "International ANSWER," the group run by the "Worker's World" party and fronted by Ramsey Clark, which openly supports Kim Jong-il, Fidel Castro, Slobodan Milosevic, and the "resistance" in Afghanistan and Iraq, with Clark himself finding extra time to volunteer as attorney for the génocidaires in Rwanda. Quite a "wide range of progressive political objectives" indeed, if that's the sort of thing you like. However, a dip into any database could have furnished Janofsky with well-researched and well-written articles by David Corn and Marc Cooper—to mention only two radical left journalists—who have exposed "International ANSWER" as a front for (depending on the day of the week) fascism, Stalinism, and jihadism.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Bruz...

Hold on there...


I think that we have now become the country that the Japanese saw in 1941. We have people who don't want to join the military and fight for their country anymore because they no longer have a sense that our country's freedoms and blessings need to be fought for, we are all now entitled to them, free of charge. We now have military commanders who are more worried about risking their careers than winning battles, and political leaders who are more worried about criticism from the opposing political party than they are about winning a war.

We ARE the county that Japan saw in 1941.

Woodrow Wilson drafted almost 3 million men to get us in on the spolis of the 'Great' War, some 80% of total service personel. Not very many people wanted to go fight in Europe.

In WWII, we drafted 10,000,000. Not very many people wanted to go fight in Europe and the Pacific.

In our own Civil War, both sides resorted to the draft before the 2nd year was up.

American society always has and to this day breeds a people who are peace loving and a whole lot more interested in their own family and home than they are in the nation as a whole.

We have never had a militant society like Sparta or Emperial Japan, or have the Teutonic War hero culture of Germany. We've never had a Naploeon or a Ceasar.

Cindy Sheehan is nothing new. Clement Valladingham wanted the Union split, north and south rather than shed one more drop of blood, and ran on that platform to take Lincolns job in 1864.

Thing is, Cindy's son understood what his mother may never will. She, like Valladingham, has her supporters. She, like good old Clement, gets to stand before the public and be accepted or rejected by popular will. Lincoln was cast as evil, intent on killing mothers sons for no good when peace could be had by merely admiting the mistakes he, old Abe, had made. The same game is not sticking to W any better no matter how loud the screams and finger pointing.

Clement lost, fantastically in the primary. Cindy represents similar numbers and can't get but a soul or two two stand by her side who would then be accountable to the public.

Viet Nam is this blot that sticks out like a sore thumb but Lincoln once again could tell us all about hesitant and calculating generals.

We, Americans, are in this war for the long haul, like our Civil war, like WWII, because the longer we're in it, the more valuable teh golas become.

This is no Viet Nams where a law of dimishing returns kicked in from a far away land against people who'd never lifted a finger against us.

Have a little faith.
 
B

Bruzilla

Guest
Larry Gude said:
Hold on there...

American society always has and to this day breeds a people who are peace loving and a whole lot more interested in their own family and home than they are in the nation as a whole.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Back in the day, as it were, a draft was a normal occurence, expected if you will. The general attitude was "if I'm needed I'll get called up," so there was no real need to rush things and sign up. Being drafted was something that was expected, as was the value in serving your country. That mentality is now mostly gone. We are now a country of the leisure class, just as the Japs thought of us in 1940. Our poor no longer ask for 40 acres a mule and a plow to get by. Now the poor need cable TV, a modern kitchen, a car, etc., just to survive. Good heavens, we had a good chunk of our population freaking out because people in New Orleans had to go a DAY without food!!! While I'm no fan of Bin Ladin, if he has been existing for years living in a cave I gotta give him more credit than I would 90% of all Americans... they wouldn't have lasted that long.

Larry Gude said:
Viet Nam is this blot that sticks out like a sore thumb but Lincoln once again could tell us all about hesitant and calculating generals.

You see Larry, this is the problem. Too many people have been conditioned to see Vietnam as a sore thumb rather than the purpose and outcome that it served. Vietnam was all about halting Communist expansion. It wasn't about propping up crappy governments, it wasn't about colonialism, and it wasn't about attacking people who never lifted a finger against us. The Soviets were very intent on solidifying their power, and we were out to stop them. Our only problem was that we lost sight of what we were there to do as we tried to placate everyone including our enemies... just like we're doing in Iraq now. South Vietnam eventually fell, but it wasn't our mission to prevent it from falling, our mission was to halt Soviet expansionism in the Far East, and we did exactly that. Because of the level of effort required, and minimum return on investment gained, to take Vietnam the Soviets knew that there was no way they were going to be able to continue down into Japan and further south and they had to change their priorities, resulting in their moving away from SE Asia and focusing on Central America. Mission accomplished.

Larry Gude said:
We, Americans, are in this war for the long haul, like our Civil war, like WWII, because the longer we're in it, the more valuable teh golas become.

If you believe that you need some new meds. :lol: I guarantee you that the minute we find Bin Ladin and get him into custody, you're going to start hearing that the War on Terror is over so let's pull our troops out of Afghanistan and Iraq, and any pushes to the contrary are going to be met with the fiercest resistance possible. As for Iraq specifically, Bush needs to get off his ass and start winning a war rather than trying to make friends. And as for the troops, I think we need to start getting more leaders in place who don't give a damn about carreers and who are willing to win the war as well.
 
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