AP: Ehrlich Vetoes Minimum Wage, Gay Rights Bills

AndyMarquisLIVE

New Member
AP: Ehrlich Vetoes Minimum Wage, Gay Rights Bills

Governor Ehrlich has vetoed bills to increase the minimum wage and grant additional rights to gay and unmarried couples. | MORE >>

I also have a posting with my commentary on this issue | Click here

What's everyone's opinion?
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
It is within the Governor's right to veto these bills just as it is within the rights of the legislature to overturn those vetoes. Let the process work, if the support for them is sufficient they will become law, if not then that is how it should be.

For me, raising the minimum wage could hurt many businesses. If people want to earn more then they should ask for a raise based on their performance or move on. The government mandating the minimum that a person should be paid seems overly controlling and intrusive.

As to same-sex marriages I don't have a problem with them, but I understand the problems many do have with the concept. I think we, the people of the State of Maryland, should vote it up or down via referendum at the next election and let the people be heard on the matter.
 

AndyMarquisLIVE

New Member
Raising minimum wage

I agree 100% that it would hurt small businesses. However, places that I've looked at and other people I know - Some of the smaller businesses pay more than Wal-Mart, Target, etc. Best Buy and Wal-Mart both, from my understanding, pay minimum wage without benefits. Sure, overtime your paycheck will continue to rise. Some people I know that work for smaller businesses though are making between 8$/h and 15$/h. However, I am not sure about every company.

As for the gay rights, as I mentioned in my blog posting: Let it play out differently. What ticks me off the most was when President Bush, who I was a hardcore supporter for, tried to get a Constitutional Amendment. Let's let it play out with the intent of legalizing same-sex marriages. If we try in the path we are, this issue will never end.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Friday's vetoes drew harsh criticism from supporters of the bills. They say the governor's claim to be a political moderate is nothing more than campaign rhetoric.
"Moderate". That's interesting. The only time I ever hear a Democrat call anyone a "moderate" is if they're towing the liberal party line.

Abortion on demand? That's considered a "moderate" position.

Raising taxes through the roof so they can spend it on welfare Moms and crack addicts? They consider that "moderate".

Unfettered gay marriage and teaching homosexuality in classrooms to 2nd graders? More "moderate" positioning.

In fact, the only thing Democrats seem to think is "extreme" is having the Ten Commandments on public property or forbidding sex and profanity on our public airwaves.

Funny, that.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Ok...

...first off, welcome.

You post is clear that you are for same sex marriage. Fine. If nothing else, there is no argument that official, legally recognized marriage is something new. Make a case for it.

You note that Massachusetts Supreme Court (a state, not federal court) declared it legal in Massachusetts. If you accept that a state has that right, then aren't you obligated to accept that a state has the right to NOT recognize gay marriage?

If not, if you support the idea that this is a US Constitution issue, as you note:

It is the U.S. Constitution that says every person is an equal and no Government shall infringe on their civil rights.

...then are you not obligate to state that Massachusetts court has no business ruling on federal, national, issues?

Or do you argue to have it both ways; It's a state issue if you agree with a particular states stance. It's a Constitutional issue if you disagree with, say Maryland?

Further, you argue for a vote. The people of Massachusetts were not allowed to vote. You call it a law but the court decreed a right which did not exist prior, gay marriage, which obligates the state to a legal contract, marriage, without a vote and without the governors signature. There was no law passed.

At the minimum, Maryland acted in a proper, accepted, lawful fashion; a bill was passed that the governor veto'd.

California did much the same thing when a city mayor, having far less standing than a state court, attempted to make state law. Or is it federal?

Further, you state:

We cannot continue to deny civil rights to any American for religious purposes

Does this suggest you would accept not recognizing gay marriage on other grounds?

What if three people, with full Constitutional rights, as you say, wish to marry? Or four? Would you argue they have a right? Wha tif they are minors? The Constitutional says nothing about an age requirement before the Bill of Rights applies.

If so, on what basis?

If not, again, on what basis?

Gay marriage does not exist. It has not existed. The marriage contract, both in religious settings and non-secular situations have long been accepted by conventional wisdom and tradition as being between one man and one woman.

Personally, as silly as the entire idea is, I am all for gay marriage...between two consenting adults. This is, by defintion, discrimanatory and I'm fine with that because, absent rational limits, chaos this way lies.

So, let the House and the Senate create some discrimanatory, unconstitutional (as you've defined it) legislation that will certainly be off to the the Supreme Court the moment the ink dries from a Presidential signature. Let homosexuals close the barn door to other peoples 'rights' once they get theirs.

The mayor of San Francisco and the Judges of the Massachusetts state Supreme court should be impeached. They knowingly and intentional violated their responsibilities and the sacred public trust. In a free society where individual rights can only be protected by rule of law they are the worst kind of activists; wrong ones.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
I'm all for a minimum wage...

...just set what it is and have the state and feds cut me a check for my employees and I'll pass it on to them. In fact, how about we save a step and just send it direct to them.

So far, in conversations with them, $100 an hour sounds about right. They don't want to be greedy but they could use the money. To prove they are being reasonable, they're willing to give up overtime and all benefits in exchange.

While we're at it, I'd like a minimum of $10,000,000 next year, after taxes. I do more than they do to keep the doors open, so, I figure that's a good number. Wait. You mean it's not merit based?

Sigh. OK, $10 mil for all of us. Minimum.

I'm a citizen as well, entitled to equal rights, yes?

When we tire of that, we can just raise it again, right?
 

truby20

Fighting like a girl
How did this go into a gay marriage debate? Yes Ehrlich used that reasoning to veto the bill allowing unmarried couples to make medical decisions for one another, but gay marriage wasn't what this bill was about. Some on the right said they saw this as a step toward gay marriage but that is just their reasoning. This bill would have helped many heterosexual couples who feel that marriage just isn't necessary for their relationship but would like the option of entering an agreement where they could make medical decisions for the other person, I can think of a few elderly couples who would like that option. Not to mention the thousands of same-sex couples who don't even have the option to marry, now Ehrlich feels that they don't even deserve the right to easily enter into agreement where they can make these important decisions toward the other.

The real gay marriage debate will come up in Maryland at some point and then the legislators and voters will decide if we are ready for it. For now though what Ehrlich did was just cruel.
 

AndyMarquisLIVE

New Member
Raise a few good points

If you don't mind I just might publish that on my blog - but in response: I do not criticize how the state acted - I want this to become one national debate. But, until then states should be able to act freely, the more states get involved - the more the pressure will rise on Washington politicians to act. This is a battle that will be hung in our courts for decades.

I'm not approving of gay marriage but at the same time it doesn't hurt anyone. If a person loves someone, why can't they get married. It's not hurting me what they do and in fact it's not my business either. It's not anyone's business. It's more than definently not the governments.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Boy, that was easy...

can make these important decisions toward the other

Truby, why would anyone expect to be able to or what someone to be able to make important decisions about and for them while incapacitated when they won't take the step of responsibility marriage is?

We just had a nation dividing case in Florida where the HUSBAND was crucified for making decisions for HIS WIFE.

Imagine the battles if someone's 'life partner' or 'dear friend' is calling the shots and some family members gets mad. Or a neighbor. Or Ex. Or Tom Delay. Or...
 

AndyMarquisLIVE

New Member
Terri Schiavo battle

We just had a nation dividing case in Florida where the HUSBAND was crucified for making decisions for HIS WIFE.​

Oh gawd please don't remind me
 

truby20

Fighting like a girl
Larry Gude said:
Truby, why would anyone expect to be able to or what someone to be able to make important decisions about and for them while incapacitated when they won't take the step of responsibility marriage is?

We just had a nation dividing case in Florida where the HUSBAND was crucified for making decisions for HIS WIFE.

Imagine the battles if someone's 'life partner' or 'dear friend' is calling the shots and some family members gets mad. Or a neighbor. Or Ex. Or Tom Delay. Or...

Well that's why it is important to have a living will so the loved one wouldn't be forced to make the decision.

I was just making the argument that if two people both agree that they are committed and want to have the responsibility to make these critical decisions (but don't want to get married or are unable to because of current laws) this would have been a progressive option.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
They had one...

truby20 said:
Well that's why it is important to have a living will so the loved one wouldn't be forced to make the decision.

I was just making the argument that if two people both agree that they are committed and want to have the responsibility to make these critical decisions (but don't want to get married or are unable to because of current laws) this would have been a progressive option.

...a living will. It's called Florida State Law, where they lived. It was up to him. Period.

Imagine a federal pro gay marriage bill, which you WILL have to have in order to make the gay marriage 'right' nationally recognized as some states will resist if it is a state issue. Imagine all the howling as state after state and their own ways of organizing marriage rights and responsibilities get thrown out the door.

The Kennedys are allowed to procreate in Massachusetts. The only other place on the planet they can legally do that is Hollywood.

You are to declare your relation, if any, to the prospective nearly betrothed in Southern Maryland. Says so right on the liscense.

Can you imagine if the Kennedy's catch wind of that? Have kids AND marry one another?

Where will it end?

All so two people who define their lives as non-usual can have legal basis for giant, ugly, show trial divorces?
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Larry Gude said:
... which you WILL have to have in order to make the gay marriage 'right' nationally recognized as some states will resist if it is a state issue. Imagine all the howling as state after state and their own ways of organizing marriage rights and responsibilities get thrown out the door.
Isn't that what we already have with the XIV Amendment? For instance, Maryland does not allow for the common law marriage, but it recognizes those established in other states. Or those first cousin couples that get married in Maryland have established a marriage that must be recognized by states that do not allow for such a close relationship in the marriage.
 

Larry Gude

Strung Out
Well maybe I misunerstand...

Ken King said:
Isn't that what we already have with the XIV Amendment? For instance, Maryland does not allow for the common law marriage, but it recognizes those established in other states. Or those first cousin couples that get married in Maryland have established a marriage that must be recognized by states that do not allow for such a close relationship in the marriage.

...but I thought the 14th was about equal rigths. How can Maryland accept common law from onther state yet deny it's own citizens? This is an interstate, commerce issue, not a local building ordinance.

I would think that, absent a Supreme Court decision on Common law, MAryland would lose a court case simply because it exists in otehr states on 14th grounds.

Yes?
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
Larry Gude said:
...but I thought the 14th was about equal rigths. How can Maryland accept common law from onther state yet deny it's own citizens? This is an interstate, commerce issue, not a local building ordinance.

I would think that, absent a Supreme Court decision on Common law, MAryland would lose a court case simply because it exists in otehr states on 14th grounds.

Yes?
No, because the right to establish marriages is maintained by the state and not the nation (see X Amendment). The state is free to determine what they consider a marriage but they must also recognize what other states have determined it to be as it is their right.
 

Ken King

A little rusty but not crusty
PREMO Member
truby20 said:
How did this go into a gay marriage debate? Yes Ehrlich used that reasoning to veto the bill allowing unmarried couples to make medical decisions for one another, but gay marriage wasn't what this bill was about. Some on the right said they saw this as a step toward gay marriage but that is just their reasoning. This bill would have helped many heterosexual couples who feel that marriage just isn't necessary for their relationship but would like the option of entering an agreement where they could make medical decisions for the other person, I can think of a few elderly couples who would like that option. Not to mention the thousands of same-sex couples who don't even have the option to marry, now Ehrlich feels that they don't even deserve the right to easily enter into agreement where they can make these important decisions toward the other.

The real gay marriage debate will come up in Maryland at some point and then the legislators and voters will decide if we are ready for it. For now though what Ehrlich did was just cruel.
SB796, titled Medical Decision Making Act of 2005, starts off with the following text; "For the purpose of establishing life partnerships in the state for certain puropses".

In other words I would say that would include common law marriages and same-sex unions, both of which are not allowed at this time in our state.
 
R

remaxrealtor

Guest
AndyMarquisLIVE said:
If you don't mind I just might publish that on my blog - but in response: I do not criticize how the state acted - I want this to become one national debate. But, until then states should be able to act freely, the more states get involved - the more the pressure will rise on Washington politicians to act. This is a battle that will be hung in our courts for decades.

I'm not approving of gay marriage but at the same time it doesn't hurt anyone. If a person loves someone, why can't they get married. It's not hurting me what they do and in fact it's not my business either. It's not anyone's business. It's more than definently not the governments.

IMHO the issue here is in the terminology. Far more people would be willing to hear the debate and listen w/out prejudice if the gay community would lay off the word "marriage". In both religious and non-religious history this term refers to the union between a man and a woman. It's like try to use the word lactate for something a man does, it just doesn't fit the definition. I believe things would progressive more quickly if they were using a term that more people could feel comfortable with. Many see this not as something being given to gays, but as something being taken away from heterosexuals.
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
remaxrealtor said:
IMHO the issue here is in the terminology. Far more people would be willing to hear the debate and listen w/out prejudice if the gay community would lay off the word "marriage". In both religious and non-religious history this term refers to the union between a man and a woman. It's like try to use the word lactate for something a man does, it just doesn't fit the definition. I believe things would progressive more quickly if they were using a term that more people could feel comfortable with. Many see this not as something being given to gays, but as something being taken away from heterosexuals.
I agree with you completely. Teach people to walk before you expect them to run.

I, personally, have no problem with gay people being married and it being called "marriage". But I can understand that other people are upset about it and you'd think gays would compromise and call it "civil union" or whatever if it gets them what they want.

The whole "make medical decisions" is a straw dog and shouldn't even be part of the conversation, IMO. As Larry pointed out, being married doesn't mean you get to make medical decisions on behalf of your spouse just like snapping your fingers.

The fact is that gay couples want to be recognized as such and have legal and social designation, just like hetero couples do. Who cares what we call it, as long as the same rights are there?
 

Railroad

Routinely Derailed
truby20 said:
How did this go into a gay marriage debate? Yes Ehrlich used that reasoning to veto the bill allowing unmarried couples to make medical decisions for one another, but gay marriage wasn't what this bill was about. Some on the right said they saw this as a step toward gay marriage but that is just their reasoning. This bill would have helped many heterosexual couples who feel that marriage just isn't necessary for their relationship but would like the option of entering an agreement where they could make medical decisions for the other person, I can think of a few elderly couples who would like that option. Not to mention the thousands of same-sex couples who don't even have the option to marry, now Ehrlich feels that they don't even deserve the right to easily enter into agreement where they can make these important decisions toward the other.

The real gay marriage debate will come up in Maryland at some point and then the legislators and voters will decide if we are ready for it. For now though what Ehrlich did was just cruel.
Sometimes doing the right thing is very unpopular. I applaud his decision and I wish I could expect the legislature to have the same courage that he does. Condoning sin, much less accommodating it, is wrong.
 
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