"As much as we were trying to find this man guilty

Chris0nllyn

Well-Known Member

SG_Player1974

New Member
""But we had to grab our hearts and put it aside and look at the evidence."

WOW!!! You mean you actually had to decide the case on EVIDENCE instead of what you THOUGHT should happen?

Say it ain't so..... :coffee:

Who would have thought a conviction or non-conviction should be based on evidence? :sarcasm:
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Ace's comments...on the mark, as usual.


At some point, if we're to have this "Honest National Discussion of Race," we're going to have to ask who exactly is thinking primarily in terms of Racial Solidarity and Skin Allegiance. Because it's pretty damn remarkable that this woman is telling us that the law and evidence said that Zimmerman is innocent, and yet still feels the need for demonstrating her Racial Loyalty by proclaiming him a murderer anyway.

Ace of Spades HQ
 

mAlice

professional daydreamer

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
Good lord, really????

"We WANTED to find him guilty but, alas, the evidence of guilt just wasn't there..."

WTH?? This is some scary ####. A jury that WANTS to find you guilty of murder based on their own emotional bull####. This is why we should have professional juries instead of these idiotic mouthbreathers.
 

Gilligan

#*! boat!
PREMO Member
Wait ...hang on a sec. There are some people I really wanna find guilty if I get the chance.

:whistle:
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
Good lord, really????

"We WANTED to find him guilty but, alas, the evidence of guilt just wasn't there..."

WTH?? This is some scary ####. A jury that WANTS to find you guilty of murder based on their own emotional bull####. This is why we should have professional juries instead of these idiotic mouthbreathers.

All that it means is that the jury (or this juror), just like the lead detective on the case, didnt fully buy zimmermans story. Apparently she believed a lost worse of Zimmerman, it doenst matter. they abided by the law and found him innocent based on the evidence. Thats what juries are supposed to do, put aside their emotions and make a judgement based on the evidence when measured against the standard of the law. Where is the problem?
 

vraiblonde

Board Mommy
PREMO Member
Patron
All that it means is that the jury (or this juror), just like the lead detective on the case, didnt fully buy zimmermans story. Apparently she believed a lost worse of Zimmerman, it doenst matter. they abided by the law and found him innocent based on the evidence. Thats what juries are supposed to do, put aside their emotions and make a judgement based on the evidence when measured against the standard of the law. Where is the problem?

A jury is supposed to be impartial. They're not supposed to be rooting for either side and definitely not supposed to be wanting to find the defendant guilty. If what this woman says is correct, they came in with a preconceived notion and that is not the way it's supposed to work.
 

MarieB

New Member
All that it means is that the jury (or this juror), just like the lead detective on the case, didnt fully buy zimmermans story. Apparently she believed a lost worse of Zimmerman, it doenst matter. they abided by the law and found him innocent based on the evidence. Thats what juries are supposed to do, put aside their emotions and make a judgement based on the evidence when measured against the standard of the law. Where is the problem?

The problem is

Look at the headlines

What are people going to remember about what has been reported?
 

MarieB

New Member
A jury is supposed to be impartial. They're not supposed to be rooting for either side and definitely not supposed to be wanting to find the defendant guilty. If what this woman says is correct, they came in with a preconceived notion and that is not the way it's supposed to work.


But, in the end they did what they were supposed to do - listen to instructions, look at the evidence, and not rely on emotions

I do however wish they would all shut up until the race baiting #### is over, if it ever is

I don't even think I would want to speak about it publicly. I think some want the spotlight
 

twinoaks207

Having Fun!
A jury is supposed to be impartial. They're not supposed to be rooting for either side and definitely not supposed to be wanting to find the defendant guilty. If what this woman says is correct, they came in with a preconceived notion and that is not the way it's supposed to work.

No, it is not supposed to work that way. BUT, how the hell do you find an impartial jury when a case has been tried in the press for months? Unless you go out and find hermits or religious esthetics who have been living in caves for the last 3 years, it's not going to happen. That's the reality of what we allow in this country.

What we ought to do is at the first sign of anything like that kind of press coverage happening, a judge needs to put out a gag order on the press so the jury pool isn't tainted (along with major hefty fines for violations). Of course, the press will yell and scream about first amendment and freedom of the press. And they should have their time in court to have that heard. I'd love to hear how they rationalize their "right" to speculate and character assasinate under the guise of calling it "news". (Maybe we could send 'em all to Judge Judy - she'd tell it like it is, :lol: Bring it on!)

On an aside, how long did it take them to get this jury and how many potentials were challenged by the respective attorneys? At some point, you've just got to go with what you've got and pray that you've at least got a jury that's balanced between "sides".
 

MarieB

New Member
I didn't get the feeling that her perceptions came from pre concieved notions. Just the opposite in fact


No to the gag order. It sets a bad precedent and makes for a slippery slope.
 

Lurk

Happy Creepy Ass Cracka
On an aside, how long did it take them to get this jury and how many potentials were challenged by the respective attorneys? At some point, you've just got to go with what you've got and pray that you've at least got a jury that's balanced between "sides".

I believe it took a week to seat the jury (only 10 people instead of 14 or so in other states). It appears this BlackHispanic juror was expecting the prosecution case to be a lot stronger based on the one-sided media circus leading up to the trial. When the case wasn't there, she (like a surprising number of non-black commenters) intuited that Zimmerman was guilty of something but too crafty to get caught. Two other jurors believed he was guilty of manslaughter but three voted as the evidence directed. This juror is pizzed at the prosecution for not using CSI instead of the real FBI labs.
 

Midnightrider

Well-Known Member
A jury is supposed to be impartial. They're not supposed to be rooting for either side and definitely not supposed to be wanting to find the defendant guilty. If what this woman says is correct, they came in with a preconceived notion and that is not the way it's supposed to work.

Maybe you can show where she said she had preconceived notions. From what I read she formed her opinion of his responsibility in the jury box. Despite being convinced by the evidence presented at trial of zimmermans guilt this juror was impartial and found him innocent based on the law.

Again, no problem.
 

glhs837

Power with Control
I take exception to the "Got away with murder" statement. If you found him innocent of murder, then he didn't get away with it, he just wasn't guilty of it.


Enough of this "My mind is made up, dont try and confuse me with facts" BS.
 
Good lord, really????

"We WANTED to find him guilty but, alas, the evidence of guilt just wasn't there..."

WTH?? This is some scary ####. A jury that WANTS to find you guilty of murder based on their own emotional bull####. This is why we should have professional juries instead of these idiotic mouthbreathers.

After listening to parts of the interview, I don't think that's what she's trying to say. She seems to believe that what Mr. Zimmerman did was wrong, even that it should be illegal. But she also concluded that the law as it was explained to the jury doesn't make it illegal, so ultimately she thought she had to find him not guilty. Now, based on something she said, it seems to me that she misunderstood what's required for a manslaughter conviction, and I inferred that some of the other jurors might have similarly misunderstood that charge. But I think the sentiment she's trying to convey, at least as I'm able to understand it, is reasonable.

It sounds like she did her job and followed the jury instructions as she understood them (even if she and others misunderstood part of them). She thought that Mr. Zimmerman did something. For her own part, she thought what he did was wrong. She thought it should be illegal, she thought that it should be considered murder or something like that. However, she recognized that the law is not necessarily what she thought it should be. So, based on the law, at least as it was given to the jury, she eventually decided that not guilty was the appropriate verdict. It seems she would like the requirements of the law to be different, or would like the prosecution to have charged him with something that was supported by the evidence. But, she doesn't make the rules, she just had to apply them to what happened in this case.

That's how I would express what I take her as saying (she likely wouldn't articulate it that way herself, but that's the essence of sentiment I'm getting from what she did say). There may also be an element of - I think he's guilty but it wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt in there - but she didn't directly indicate that sentiment. But if that was part of here thinking, it would be reasonable as well. You can want to convict someone in the sense that you're pretty sure they're guilty, but still feel that you are supposed to find them not guilty because you aren't sure beyond a reasonable doubt.

Anyway, I can say that I felt part of the first sentiment in the case I was a juror on. The defendant was charged with a number of things, and one of them in particular I would like to have been able to find him guilty of. I wish the law was different in terms of the precise elements that needed to be demonstrated. In fact, my jury asked for clarification on a specific point regarding the elements of that charge. I don't recall for sure whether we got greater clarification or were left with just the original instruction (I think the former). But based on what we were being instructed that we had to find, I couldn't justify a guilty vote on that one charge. It might be fair to say that I wanted to find him guilty, at least on that charge, but I couldn't because of what I was told the law was. In other words, I recognized that I wasn't there to decide what the law should be, or to make a subjective decision as to whether the defendant deserved to be punished, I was there to apply the law as it existed whether or not doing so sat well in my stomach.
 
Can she do that without putting herself in a position where Z could bring her up on charges? Defamation of character? Slander? This just sounds wrong.

Absolutely she can and he'd have no case if he tried to sue her for saying that he got away with murder. He'd have a tough time finding a lawyer willing to bring suit based on that statement.

He may have gotten away with murder. He surely can't prove conclusively that he didn't. He doesn't need to in so far as criminal charges go, and he won't even need to in order to win a civil suit or get immunity from one.

Further, whether he got away with murder or not, I'd guess that she sincerely believes that he did. I don't think she said that thinking it's a lie. She seems to believe he murdered Mr. Martin but either that: (1) what he did doesn't meet the requirements of the charges the state brought based on the instructions given to the jury or (2) it wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty.

I'd ask this, do you think you Casey Anthony would have any chance of winning a suit against you if you said that she got away with murder? Or could she win a suit against one of the jurors if they said that? Or O.J. Simpson, could he win a suit against any of the people that have said that he got away with murder? It's not an established fact that Mr. Zimmerman didn't murder (whatever that might mean precisely) Mr. Martin, people are free to think and say that he got away with murder.
 

mAlice

professional daydreamer
Absolutely she can and he'd have no case if he tried to sue her for saying that he got away with murder. He'd have a tough time finding a lawyer willing to bring suit based on that statement.

He may have gotten away with murder. He surely can't prove conclusively that he didn't. He doesn't need to in so far as criminal charges go, and he won't even need to in order to win a civil suit or get immunity from one.

Further, whether he got away with murder or not, I'd guess that she sincerely believes that he did. I don't think she said that thinking it's a lie. She seems to believe he murdered Mr. Martin but either that: (1) what he did doesn't meet the requirements of the charges the state brought based on the instructions given to the jury or (2) it wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he was guilty.

I'd ask this, do you think you Casey Anthony would have any chance of winning a suit against you if you said that she got away with murder? Or could she win a suit against one of the jurors if they said that? Or O.J. Simpson, could he win a suit against any of the people that have said that he got away with murder? It's not an established fact that Mr. Zimmerman didn't murder (whatever that might mean precisely) Mr. Martin, people are free to think and say that he got away with murder.

Well, you do have a point, I don't know the law, and I actually hadn't thought about it in the past. I guess people do get away with murder, at least we can make that assumption. Still, just because I 'think' Casey Anthony murdered her child, or just because I 'think' OJ got away with murder, doesn't make it true.

Thanks for the info, though!
 
Well, you do have a point, I don't know the law, and I actually hadn't thought about it in the past. I guess people do get away with murder, at least we can make that assumption. Still, just because I 'think' Casey Anthony murdered her child, or just because I 'think' OJ got away with murder, doesn't make it true.

Thanks for the info, though!

You're welcome. And sure, you thinking those things doesn't make them true. But you thinking them, in good faith, does protect you from being (successfully) sued for having said them.
 
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