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hvp05
Methodically disorganized
Oliver North posted a commentary in today's Times titled "(Anti) military operations". Despite the fact that "all services are meeting or exceeding their re-enlistment requirements", many Dems don't get it that what we are fighting for overseas is righteous and worthwhile.
Ted Kennedy [and others] visited Gitmo a week or so ago. Reportedly he was approached by several Mass. troops that told him to quit the incessant bashing of operations there, and that the detainees are not "suffering". Do you think he will now get it?
Ted Kennedy [and others] visited Gitmo a week or so ago. Reportedly he was approached by several Mass. troops that told him to quit the incessant bashing of operations there, and that the detainees are not "suffering". Do you think he will now get it?
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Bruzilla
Guest
It might be nice if From also mentioned that the reason we're having to use the guard and reserve units as a "backdoor draft" is that Bill Clinton and his cronies transferred most of the military's support units to the reserves and national guard to save money, and now those guys are having to pick up the tab.
But the Dems still don't get it. You can't get 100,000 more troops like you can get 100,000 inner city types to show up for free cheese. These people have to be recruited, trained, equipped, and fielded. Plus you have to establish units for them to go to, all of which requires a lot of time and additional resources. Any group who thinks you can "upsize" the military to cover a short-term requirement obviously doesn't get it.
But the Dems still don't get it. You can't get 100,000 more troops like you can get 100,000 inner city types to show up for free cheese. These people have to be recruited, trained, equipped, and fielded. Plus you have to establish units for them to go to, all of which requires a lot of time and additional resources. Any group who thinks you can "upsize" the military to cover a short-term requirement obviously doesn't get it.
hvp05
Methodically disorganized
Either you didn't read the article I linked to yesterday, or you are sneakily talking about the Army alone.rraley said:
"the Army acknowledges shortfalls on new recruits. Through the end of June, the Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard all 'made their end strength objectives' and the Marine Corps actually went 2 percent over its new 'accessions' goal. Enlisted accessions are the new additions to the enlisted strength of a military service."
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czygvtwkr
Guest
rraley said:
Sure you can you just up wave a nice fat enlistment bonus, offer minor felons that have a chance at rebilitating a chance to exponge their records, offer something better than the GI bill to go to college, relax the physical reqirements some, recruit for noncombat roles only and offer those currently in the job a large bonus/promotion to move to a combat role. There are quite a few things they could do, especially if the job market is as bad as some democrats say it is.
FromTexas
This Space for Rent
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Bruzilla
Guest
What I find sadly amusing is that rr is right... we are throwing away a LOT of money to get new recruits when there's no reason to. The Army has always had trouble making it's goals during the first half of the year. Most of the people who join the Army go in after high school, and these kids usually wait until July or August to go in, so the numbers for Jan through June are always lower than those for the remainder of the year.
Unfortunately... the administration is once again doing stupid stuff because the Democrats are criticizing them when they should just be telling the Dems to go stage some protest gay marriages or hand out government cheese and leave the military stuff to the Republicans.
Maybe we could take some of the money that we're blowing trying to get kids to give up their summer and instead spend it on a huge God Rules sign at the Pentagon. That way all of the attention of the Dems would be focused on that, which would free us up to fight the war.
Unfortunately... the administration is once again doing stupid stuff because the Democrats are criticizing them when they should just be telling the Dems to go stage some protest gay marriages or hand out government cheese and leave the military stuff to the Republicans.
Maybe we could take some of the money that we're blowing trying to get kids to give up their summer and instead spend it on a huge God Rules sign at the Pentagon. That way all of the attention of the Dems would be focused on that, which would free us up to fight the war.
czygvtwkr said:
I wonder how much all of this will cost...plus I don't think that it seems to matter.
To the person who said I didn't read the whole linked article...we don't need more people in the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard. We need people in the Army, they are the ones seeing almost all of the action in today's war.
hvp05
Methodically disorganized
Man, you and Bruzilla really are thinking alike.rraley said:
rraley said:
I am the individual that said you did not read the whole linked article. According to Bru, you just need to wait another 6 months; those Army numbers will go up. He's a smart dude, so I'll bet there is a good chance he's right.
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Bruzilla
Guest
It's not about being smart, it's about serving as a Navy recruiter for two years. There are two types of recruits out there: those who know they want to go in for a long time and those who decide at the last minute. The former usually go in under a Delayed Entry Program (DEP) that enables them to get their pick of training/specialty. The last minute folks generally have no real idea of what they want to do, rather they just want a job and they'll worry about what they'll do after basic training.
The DEP folks, while they can sign contracts at anytime, don't actually count towards any real numbers until they depart for recruit training, and they won't leave until high school is out, plus some time off for summer. The other group will graduate high school, sit around all summer wondering what to do with their lives, and then talk to the recruiters around September and ship out within a couple of weeks.
You also need to look at a far more important number, and that is retention rate for folks already in uniform, especially in mid pay grades like E-5 to E-6. If I were Rumsfeld I'll trade five new enlistees for one retained E-5 anyday of the week. For every batch of new recruits, you're going to have about 10-20% wash out for academics, physical fitness, and disciplinary reasons before they ever get out of boot camp. Then you'll lose even more as they go through their advanced training. And even worse, the Army has had a long standing tradition of offering short-term enlistment contracts, so just about the time a guy gets to know his job, his enlistment is up. Retaining is a lot more important than recruiting at this point.
As for comparing the Air Force, Navy, and Marines to the Army, you can't do that and it's not because of the war. The USAF and USN are highly technology/equipment driven and don't require that many people to begin with, plus they have traditionaly required longer periods of service (4 to 6 years) due to the amount of training required, so the demand for new recruits is pretty low compared to the Army with it's heavy reliance on manpower and short enlistment periods. And you can't compare the Marines because most people who join the Marines do so to become a "MARINE" and that title drives their enlistments more than anything else.
The DEP folks, while they can sign contracts at anytime, don't actually count towards any real numbers until they depart for recruit training, and they won't leave until high school is out, plus some time off for summer. The other group will graduate high school, sit around all summer wondering what to do with their lives, and then talk to the recruiters around September and ship out within a couple of weeks.
You also need to look at a far more important number, and that is retention rate for folks already in uniform, especially in mid pay grades like E-5 to E-6. If I were Rumsfeld I'll trade five new enlistees for one retained E-5 anyday of the week. For every batch of new recruits, you're going to have about 10-20% wash out for academics, physical fitness, and disciplinary reasons before they ever get out of boot camp. Then you'll lose even more as they go through their advanced training. And even worse, the Army has had a long standing tradition of offering short-term enlistment contracts, so just about the time a guy gets to know his job, his enlistment is up. Retaining is a lot more important than recruiting at this point.
As for comparing the Air Force, Navy, and Marines to the Army, you can't do that and it's not because of the war. The USAF and USN are highly technology/equipment driven and don't require that many people to begin with, plus they have traditionaly required longer periods of service (4 to 6 years) due to the amount of training required, so the demand for new recruits is pretty low compared to the Army with it's heavy reliance on manpower and short enlistment periods. And you can't compare the Marines because most people who join the Marines do so to become a "MARINE" and that title drives their enlistments more than anything else.
Bustem' Down
Give Peas a Chance
The thing is it fuctuates too much. Right now the Navy is hurting in some ratings so they increase bonuses and such, but my rating right now is overmanned. My rating people will get out and they are decreasing bonuses so in a few years we will be short again. Overall, I get the feeling that the Navy is overmanned. They've implemented all these new orders to thin us out.
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Bruzilla
Guest
Bustem' Down said:
I feel your pain! My rating was undermanned for years... right up until my re-enlistment came up. The SRB that had been $16,000 for years suddenly dropped to less than $3,000, just in time for me to raise my right hand.
Gooseneck said:
I've always considered the Marines to be part of the Army...to me they seem to have more similarities with infantry than with the Navy...so no disrespect intended. But the thing is that the Marine Corps is having one of the worst times at recruiting because they are indeed consistently on the front lines.
Bustem' Down
Give Peas a Chance
Marines are under the Dept of the Navy. Never call a Marine army, you might as well have punched his momma in the mouth!rraley said:
Bustem' Down
Give Peas a Chance
Ouch that sucks, I squeezed in and got my $45,000, but it's now down to like 5,000, and for a technical rate, that doesn't keep people in.Bruzilla said:
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Bruzilla
Guest
Speaking as someone who has lived with a nicely chipped tooth for 20 years to mark several years of fighting with Marines, the Marines don't see themselves as being in the Navy either. The fact that they are a part of the Department of the Navy, and not an individual branch, means nothing to them.
Marines are instilled with a tremendous amount of pride and esprit de Corps that's nothing like what the other branches get. They also have a long-lived, and often over-hyped, reputation as being in a state that's elevated from that of any common man or woman in any job. It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't worked with them for long periods of time, but for people with something to prove, people with low self-esteem, people who are driven to be the best, etc., the Marines offers a golden opportunity to prove themselves in a manner that's recognizable to most Americans, i.e., being a Marine. That's what drives their recruiting success. For most people going into the Marines the thought of combat is a secondary issue.
Marines are instilled with a tremendous amount of pride and esprit de Corps that's nothing like what the other branches get. They also have a long-lived, and often over-hyped, reputation as being in a state that's elevated from that of any common man or woman in any job. It's hard to explain to someone who hasn't worked with them for long periods of time, but for people with something to prove, people with low self-esteem, people who are driven to be the best, etc., the Marines offers a golden opportunity to prove themselves in a manner that's recognizable to most Americans, i.e., being a Marine. That's what drives their recruiting success. For most people going into the Marines the thought of combat is a secondary issue.