Australian Healthcare...

[PsyOps]

Think about that for a minute instead of reflexively defending your bailiwick. The larger the gummint is the more imperative it is that it be open and transparent. To put people at risk, as Clinton and Obama and McCain did BECAUSE they knew they could keep it secret is the horse before the cart. The answer is NOT less open-ness. Open our gummint up so we can give informed consent and then there will be FAR less people at risk because people of poor character won't be able to hide behind secrecy.

You're living in a dream world believing larger government could ever be transparent. The larger it becomes, the more out of control it becomes. The more people that are in it, the more secrets are kept; and those secrets more designed to protect themselves rather than us.

 

[SamSpade]

The only thing I know of regarding Australian healthcare is from comments on Aussie sites, and that is that generally, they still pay quite a bit out of pocket and that facilities are often crowded - something I have also experienced when abroad in public clinics. When something is "free", you can bet that people will use it more than when they have to pay for it.

And there's the one or two Aussies I know who have observed only that - if you're healthy, it's great. (They're admittedly healthy).

I would like to see comments on here, though, that are more thorough from first or second hand experience, and not from websites ABOUT it.

 

[GURPS]

You obviously reject the belief that much of what is classified, if exposed, could result in lives being negatively.

In Retrospect way more stuff is 'classified' then needs to be .... especially crap covering up for someone Politically connected who ####ed up ....

 

[Larry Gude]

You're living in a dream world believing larger government could ever be transparent. The larger it becomes, the more out of control it becomes. The more people that are in it, the more secrets are kept; and those secrets more designed to protect themselves rather than us.

So, what's more likely, my hope of we, the people at least becoming a LITTLE demanding to know what we're generally consenting to or your dream world of gummint getting smaller, at all?

The more people that are in on it, in my experience, the LESS something, ANYTHING, is a secret. However, not so in our gummint because of what you say; the secrets have, for the most part, NOTHING to do with valid reasons and everything to do with 'protecting' itself from...us knowing what it's doing.

 

[GURPS]

- if you're healthy, it's great. (They're admittedly healthy).

so is Health Care in the UK - as long as you don't really get sick ..... like needing surgery or get Cancer

 

[This_person]

So, what's more likely, my hope of we, the people at least becoming a LITTLE demanding to know what we're generally consenting to or your dream world of gummint getting smaller, at all?

The more people that are in on it, in my experience, the LESS something, ANYTHING, is a secret. However, not so in our gummint because of what you say; the secrets have, for the most part, NOTHING to do with valid reasons and everything to do with 'protecting' itself from...us knowing what it's doing.

So, we the people will demand one thing we want, but not another?

 

[PsyOps]

In Retrospect way more stuff is 'classified' then needs to be .... especially crap covering up for someone Politically connected who ####ed up ....

Same old point... I'll ask again, in hopes that maybe you can give us some answers:

I'm not doubting too much is classified, but since you and Larry believe too much is classified, who gets to decide what gets classified and what doesn't? How do we get control over this? Since Larry seems to now be for bigger government, doesn't that make it even more impossible to get control over this classified stuff?

 

[Larry Gude]

So, after all the bashing, you're now saying Bush was right?

You get an award for creative interpretation.

No. Bush, having THE chance to show what limited gummint could do, went the other way. He is the one who had THE chance and he is the one who chose what he did. I suppose we can debate his reasoning but you're not going to exonerate him with that lame attempt.

 

[This_person]

You get an award for creative interpretation.

No. Bush, having THE chance to show what limited gummint could do, went the other way. He is the one who had THE chance and he is the one who chose what he did. I suppose we can debate his reasoning but you're not going to exonerate him with that lame attempt.

I'm not trying to exonerate him, but you did, through action. I believe he was wrong, you decided to follow his lead.

 

[PsyOps]

the secrets have, for the most part, NOTHING to do with valid reasons and everything to do with 'protecting' itself from...us knowing what it's doing.

Larry, my bet is you have never been responsible for handling classified; or probably never even seen it outside of what gets leaked to the news. How can you possible know this?

 

[GURPS]

...... the secrets have, for the most part, NOTHING to do with valid reasons and everything to do with 'protecting' itself from...us knowing what it's doing.

Larry - we really do not need the diplomatic meeting notes from Ambassadors published on the interwebs - aka Wikileaks

nor do we need wikileaks publishing edited gun camera footage to make it look like US Forces intentionally gunned down 2 reporters for standing on a corner in a combat zone
... Monday Morning Quarterbacking Apache Crews

 

[Larry Gude]

So, we the people will demand one thing we want, but not another?

It's pretty clear that Republicans, as a party, as a voting block, are not for limited gummint, period. It's like Dem's who talk about liberalism but are actually for more centralized power. R's barely even talk the talk anymore.

 

[Larry Gude]

Larry - we really do not need the diplomatic meeting notes from Ambassadors published on the interwebs - aka Wikileaks

nor do we need wikileaks publishing edited gun camera footage to make it look like US Forces intentionally gunned down 2 reporters for standing on a corner in a combat zone
... Monday Morning Quarterbacking Apache Crews

Why not? Is the ambassador working for us? Then I wanna know what he's committing us to.

And if you have the in-edited video no one can get away with an edit, now can they?

 

[Larry Gude]

Larry, my bet is you have never been responsible for handling classified; or probably never even seen it outside of what gets leaked to the news. How can you possible know this?

Never touched or seen even a little. What's that have to do with the topic at hand? We've had this argument before. You think we pretty much classify just about the right amount. I think we classify, based on the book by Moynihan, probably 90% too much and it harms national security, not helps it.

 

[Larry Gude]

I'm not trying to exonerate him, but you did, through action. I believe he was wrong, you decided to follow his lead.

Then my writing sucks or your reading is weak.

To say someone had THE chance to institute and apply certainly ideological thinking and policies by virtue of having the power to do so, and then chose NOT and the consequences of which were that the previous ideas could no longer work is NOT to applaud but to condemn them.

 

[GURPS]

Why not? Is the ambassador working for us? Then I wanna know what he's committing us to.

I am not talking about commitments - more like impressions / opinions

.... met with Larry Gude today, that guy's a few bricks short of a full load
.... got word he has a mistress, has a drinking problem, a bit irrational at times, while drunk .....

this kinda stuff


and as far as 2nd guessing the actions of an Apache Crew in a Combat Zone - wikileaks lied its ass off [through editing and omission] to make the actions intentional

do you think the Rodney King Video [as broadcast] was fair to the LAPD.

 

[Larry Gude]

Same old point... I'll ask again, in hopes that maybe you can give us some answers:

I'm not doubting too much is classified, but since you and Larry believe too much is classified, who gets to decide what gets classified and what doesn't? How do we get control over this? Since Larry seems to now be for bigger government, doesn't that make it even more impossible to get control over this classified stuff?

So, you agree too much is classified.

I'll take it and call that a good days work. I have ZERO doubt Clinton, Bush and Obama all would have been better Presidents if they knew they could not hide behind so much secrecy. And I have zero doubt that would have meant less loss of life and more productive policies.

 

[Larry Gude]

I am not talking about commitments - more like impressions / opinions

.... met with Larry Gude today, that guy's a few bricks short of a full load
.... got word he has a mistress, has a drinking problem, a bit irrational at times, while drunk .....


this kinda stuff

So, in your scenario, my boss gets to lie about me OR hold me over the fire or do all the things people holding secrets get to do OR the American people know a good bit more of what's going on and why in THEIR name.

 

[This_person]

It's pretty clear that Republicans, as a party, as a voting block, are not for limited gummint, period. It's like Dem's who talk about liberalism but are actually for more centralized power. R's barely even talk the talk anymore.

Not a point worth arguing, because I agree with most of it. However, it had nothing to do with my question.

 

[This_person]

Then my writing sucks or your reading is weak.

To say someone had THE chance to institute and apply certainly ideological thinking and policies by virtue of having the power to do so, and then chose NOT and the consequences of which were that the previous ideas could no longer work is NOT to applaud but to condemn them.

You condemn the actions so much that you've decided they were right, though.

Or, your writing sucks.

Because, this is what you wrote:

{Bush did a bunch of bad stuff; he did stuff I hated and disagreed with...}
My 180 was as you suggested back in the day; it took time. As for being willing, once you come to terms with how things are and the options which include the complete absence of any meaningful support for a given ideology, you accept things and choose between being miserable or finding one's own peace. The GOP chose to lose and lose honorable with Goldwater and that beget Reagan. That spirit, lose with principle rather than win and have it mean nothing, or worse, is gone.