Bristol's Body, Sarah's Choice

[bcp]

I dont believe in abortion as a birth control option. and that is all I will say on that matter.
however, I did watch the video that was offered on this thread, silent scream.
I find it interesting, enough so that I might just do a little research and come up with some numbers on it, but, what I found interesting, or what tweaked my curiosity are the numbers that were used during the video.
100,000 per year before Roe V Wade.
then, the first year after, 750,000
then 1980 (the last year numbers had been tabulated prior to the film) 1.5 million.
Does anyone think that its possible that the now legal option of abortion had anything to do with the increase in the number of pregnancies to start with?

look at it this way. You are at the pool, somebody offers you 1000 bucks to climb up and jump off the high dive. the thing is, as soon as you get to the top, the ladder is removed and you have no option but to jump.
Do you go up and jump to collect your $1000.00?
I would.
Now, same offer, $1000.00, ladder gets taken away, but this time, the pool is drained. You lose your safety net. Do you still go up?
I wouldnt.

could legalizing abortion caused the feeling of a safety net, or a way out if something happened, and by that fact helped to increase the number of unwanted and or unplanned pregnancies.

Like I said, I might just run some numbers for the years between 1950 (or whenever numbers started to be collected) and at least a few years after Roe V Wade to see.

to be fair I would be looking at
year, recorded abortions, population count, babies put up for adoption and then compile percentage of instances based on total population.
That to me would be interesting information, and although never could it be considered a difinitive answer to the increase, it would be able to give another way to look at the issue.

 

[puggymom]

The Silent Scream rebuttal:
Debunked Propaganda
Planned Parenthood - The Facts Speak Louder than "The Silent Scream"

CLAIM: Ultrasonogram depicts the open mouth of the fetus.
FACTS: The mouth of the fetus cannot be identified in the ultrasound image with certainty. The statement that the screen identifies the open mouth of the fetus is a subjective and misleading interpretation by Dr. Nathanson. His conclusion is not supportable.
CLAIM: The fetus emits "the silent scream."
FACTS: A scream cannot occur without air in the lungs. Although primitive respiratory movements do occur in the later stages of gestation, crying or screaming cannot occur even then. In fact, a child born prematurely at 26–27 weeks' gestation (24–25 weeks' fetal age) cannot scream but occasionally emits weak cries.

 

[puggymom]

to be fair I would be looking at
year, recorded abortions, population count, babies put up for adoption and then compile percentage of instances based on total population.
That to me would be interesting information, and although never could it be considered a difinitive answer to the increase, it would be able to give another way to look at the issue.

That you for adding this part since we have no idea how many women were butchered by back alley abortion providers.


And thank you to everyone in general. I know this is a very heated emotional topic and I think we have had a very professional mature debate about it.

 

[czygvtwkr]

Personally abortion is a non-issue to me but I think its very short sighted of many of you to assume that Bristol wanted to abort the baby and would have if her mom wasn't in the public eye. You don't know what is going through this young lady's mind, shame on you for thinking you do.

 

[puggymom]

Personally abortion is a non-issue to me but I think its very short sighted of many of you to assume that Bristol wanted to abort the baby and would have if her mom wasn't in the public eye. You don't know what is going through this young lady's mind, shame on you for thinking you do.

I do not think anyone assumed she wanted an abortion...at least not that I remember but this is a long thread. I think it became more of a general issue about parents making this type of decision for minors as opposed to the Palin family specifically.

 

[Lenny]

I beg your pardon....

The Silent Scream rebuttal:
Debunked Propaganda
Planned Parenthood - The Facts Speak Louder than "The Silent Scream"

...what exactly is that anatomic part under the nose in this ultrasound? I have seen fetal ultrsounds where the child is sucking its thumb. The scream in a silent scream is silent because there is no air to move across the vocal cords. But the child is capable of screaming in the uterus just like it does when it's born alive and moves the first lungfuls of air. These guys have a vested interest in keeping abortions cheap and available.

 

[czygvtwkr]

I do not think anyone assumed she wanted an abortion...at least not that I remember but this is a long thread. I think it became more of a general issue about parents making this type of decision for minors as opposed to the Palin family specifically.

Please see title of thread.

 

[puggymom]

...what exactly is that anatomic part under the nose in this ultrasound? I have seen fetal ultrsounds where the child is sucking its thumb. The scream in a silent scream is silent because there is no air to move across the vocal cords. But the child is capable of screaming in the uterus just like it does when it's born alive and moves the first lungfuls of air. These guys have a vested interest in keeping abortions cheap and available.

That does not look like a picture of a 12 week fetus...that looks much closer to 20 weeks which is a huge difference.
Look at these pictures:
Google Image Result for http://silverbulletimaging.com/s_i/12_week_embryo_arms_legs.jpg

 

[puggymom]

Please see title of thread.

Yeah and how many threads here end up being about the intended point?

 

[puggymom]

And abortion services is only about 3% of what Planned Parenthood is about.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/AR_2007_vFinal.pdf
See pie chat pg. 6

 

[cwo_ghwebb]

Abortion, teen motherhood, and parental authority. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine

Last week, Democrats approved the first black major-party nominee for president. This week, Republicans countered with their first female nominee for vice president. From race to sex to religion, the circle of opportunity is expanding: John F. Kennedy to Joe Lieberman, Jesse Jackson to Barack Obama, Geraldine Ferraro to Sarah Palin. The story of emancipation marches on.
One category of Americans, however, remains officially subjugated. I'm not talking about the kind of discrimination blacks and women face in this country today. I'm talking about the kind they endured decades and centuries ago: living under the officially approved dominion of another class of human beings. And in this chapter of the American story, Palin isn't the chattel. She's one of the owners.

Charlie Martin material.

 

[This_person]

Not really from the way I see it. The only real way to make abortion illegal is to give a fetus legal rights. Once a fetus is given the same legal rights as every other born citizen shouldn't they be actually due those rights no matter what?

I compare the baby in the womb to the baby immediately out of the womb. There is an implied care contract between parents and child. The mother and father can be held liable if they do not feed and properly care for their 2 hour old - even if that care is to give the child up to parents who choose to take on the responsibility, the biological parents have "provided" care.

So, WHY is there such an implied contract? Because the parents chose to create the child, right?

So, take that two and a half hours earlier. Is the implied care any less? If so, why? I don't see that it is. Keep doing that every two and a half hours until that baby is just an embedded fertilized egg (thanks VegMom for the right time) - and then tell me which hour it went from being a worthwhile human to a part of the mother's body. Why 12 weeks and not 11? This has not been answered, other than to say 12 weeks is the first trimester. So, I'll reword - why the first trimester? What magically changes?

The fact is, nothing changes except the appearance of the child. The "viability" of the child is only changed based upon whether the mother goes through with her implied care (that she chose when she got pregnant). In reality, one can only reasonably be against abortion at all times, or believe it should be allowed at all times, up to intentionally cutting the cord for birth.

 

[tommyjones]

I compare the baby in the womb to the baby immediately out of the womb. There is an implied care contract between parents and child. The mother and father can be held liable if they do not feed and properly care for their 2 hour old - even if that care is to give the child up to parents who choose to take on the responsibility, the biological parents have "provided" care.

So, WHY is there such an implied contract? Because the parents chose to create the child, right?

So, take that two and a half hours earlier. Is the implied care any less? If so, why? I don't see that it is. Keep doing that every two and a half hours until that baby is just an embedded fertilized egg (thanks VegMom for the right time) - and then tell me which hour it went from being a worthwhile human to a part of the mother's body. Why 12 weeks and not 11? This has not been answered, other than to say 12 weeks is the first trimester. So, I'll reword - why the first trimester? What magically changes?

The fact is, nothing changes except the appearance of the child. The "viability" of the child is only changed based upon whether the mother goes through with her implied care (that she chose when she got pregnant). In reality, one can only reasonably be against abortion at all times, or believe it should be allowed at all times, up to intentionally cutting the cord for birth.

dude, we get it, she aborted your baby and you are bitter.

the fact of the matter is that it was her choice, her right, and some would argue her responsibility considering she knew what kind of parent she was prepared to be and was prediciting the type you would be.
If abortion isn't for you thats great, its not for me either. But if some woman wants to have her baby aborted by a doctor, who are you or i to question that decision considering our great country has decided that it is a legal thing to do?

if you dont want to have another baby aborted, make better choices about who you have sex with, and let the rest of the world worry about what is happening inside their own bodies.

 

[puggymom]

I compare the baby in the womb to the baby immediately out of the womb. There is an implied care contract between parents and child. The mother and father can be held liable if they do not feed and properly care for their 2 hour old - even if that care is to give the child up to parents who choose to take on the responsibility, the biological parents have "provided" care.

So, WHY is there such an implied contract? Because the parents chose to create the child, right?

So, take that two and a half hours earlier. Is the implied care any less? If so, why? I don't see that it is. Keep doing that every two and a half hours until that baby is just an embedded fertilized egg (thanks VegMom for the right time) - and then tell me which hour it went from being a worthwhile human to a part of the mother's body. Why 12 weeks and not 11? This has not been answered, other than to say 12 weeks is the first trimester. So, I'll reword - why the first trimester? What magically changes?

The fact is, nothing changes except the appearance of the child. The "viability" of the child is only changed based upon whether the mother goes through with her implied care (that she chose when she got pregnant). In reality, one can only reasonably be against abortion at all times, or believe it should be allowed at all times, up to intentionally cutting the cord for birth.

I wish I could answer your question but I am not sure if I can. I have never been in the position to have an unwanted pregnancy. I have been pregnant twice both planned, both wanted, and both ending with healthy full term babies. So to me they were my babies from day one (even though I was not a mom until they were born).
It is just not my decision to make for another woman or family. I have never been there and cannot even comprehend how hard of a decision this is. So I do not believe it is my (or politicians) place to make rules and regulations on it.

The fact of the matter is that you are going to be hard pressed to find a doctor who is willing to perform an abortion on a healthy viable fetus where the pregnancy is causing no danger to the woman. That to me is enough. This is a medical issue and I trust the ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) to set the standards of woman's care.

 

[This_person]

dude, we get it, she aborted your baby and you are bitter.

the fact of the matter is that it was her choice, her right, and some would argue her responsibility considering she knew what kind of parent she was prepared to be and was prediciting the type you would be.
If abortion isn't for you thats great, its not for me either. But if some woman wants to have her baby aborted by a doctor, who are you or i to question that decision considering our great country has decided that it is a legal thing to do?

if you dont want to have another baby aborted, make better choices about who you have sex with, and let the rest of the world worry about what is happening inside their own bodies.

Again, I'm still not discussing me, but the situation in general.

If you'd like to discuss my situation personally, I'd be glad to do that. Tell me when and where. Otherwise, let's try and be adult about our conversations. I'm sorry for you that I've bested you in every difference of opinion we've had, especially if that has been a source of embarassment for you. However, trying to turn this conversation into being about me is not helpful to anyone in any way.

 

[tommyjones]

Again, I'm still not discussing me, but the situation in general.

If you'd like to discuss my situation personally, I'd be glad to do that. Tell me when and where. Otherwise, let's try and be adult about our conversations. I'm sorry for you that I've bested you in every difference of opinion we've had, especially if that has been a source of embarassment for you. However, trying to turn this conversation into being about me is not helpful to anyone in any way.

whatever, you put it out there, but you dont want to talk about it :wahhhhh:


and the situation in general is that you feel wronged by some lady that you knocked up, and now you feel the need to take control of all womens bodies, and take away something that our great country has decided is a comepletely legal medical procedure.

get over yourself, none of these women will be aborting your baby (unless you are continuing to make bad chioces) so it is none of your business, they are the ones that will have to live with it.

 

[This_person]

I wish I could answer your question but I am not sure if I can. I have never been in the position to have an unwanted pregnancy. I have been pregnant twice both planned, both wanted, and both ending with healthy full term babies. So to me they were my babies from day one (even though I was not a mom until they were born).
It is just not my decision to make for another woman or family. I have never been there and cannot even comprehend how hard of a decision this is. So I do not believe it is my (or politicians) place to make rules and regulations on it.

The fact of the matter is that you are going to be hard pressed to find a doctor who is willing to perform an abortion on a healthy viable fetus where the pregnancy is causing no danger to the woman. That to me is enough. This is a medical issue and I trust the ACOG (American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists) to set the standards of woman's care.

That's a fair and honest answer, and I can accept that you see it as the mother's decision; although I hope that you realize you're saying you have no reason to think it's not killing a child other than not wanting to take a decision away from a mother.

I do realize it's a hard decision. As Tommy endlessly and needlessly points to, I've been involved with such a decision. And, I've had family members involved in such decisions. I personally see the choice of the mother (and father) being the decision of whether to take the chance of creating a child, not whether or not to kill the child.

Unfortunately, there are sufficient doctors willing to kill healthy fetuses every day, to the tune of 1.3 million killed annually.

UNITED STATES
All abortion numbers are derived from pro-abortion sources courtesy of The Alan Guttmacher Institute and Planned Parenthood's Family Planning
Who's having abortions (age)?52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%.

Who's having abortions (race)?While white women obtain 60% of all abortions, their abortion rate is well below that of minority women. Black women are more than 3 times as likely as white women to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are roughly 2 times as likely.

Who's having abortions (marital status)?64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women; Married women account for 18.4% of all abortions and divorced women obtain 9.4%.

Who's having abortions (religion)?
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as "Born-again/Evangelical".

Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

At what gestational ages are abortions performed:
52% of all abortions occur before the 9th week of pregnancy, 25% happen between the 9th & 10th week, 12% happen between the 11th and 12th week, 6% happen between the 13th & 15th week, 4% happen between the 16th & 20th week, and 1% of all abortions (16,450/yr.) happen after the 20th week of pregnancy.

Likelihood of abortion:An estimated 43% of all women will have at least 1 abortion by the time they are 45 years old. 47% of all abortions are performed on women who have had at least one previous abortion.

Abortion coverage:
48% of all abortion facilities provide services after the 12th week of pregnancy. 9 in 10 managed care plans routinely cover abortion or provide limited coverage. About 14% of all abortions in the United States are paid for with public funds, virtually all of which are state funds. 16 states (CA, CT, HI, ED, IL, MA , MD, MD, MN, MT, NJ, NM, NY, OR, VT, WA and WV) pay for abortions for some poor women.​

When you realize that you don't have a good reason to limit it to just the first trimester - that you are against 11% of the reported abortions above - I hope you reconsider your stance of pro-choice.

 

[This_person]

whatever, you put it out there, but you dont want to talk about it :wahhhhh:

I'm more than willing to talk with you about it, IRL.

and the situation in general is that you feel wronged by some lady that you knocked up, and now you feel the need to take control of all womens bodies, and take away something that our great country has decided is a comepletely legal medical procedure.

get over yourself, none of these women will be aborting your baby (unless you are continuing to make bad chioces) so it is none of your business, they are the ones that will have to live with it.

More importantly, the babies are the ones that will have to die over it. THAT, Tommy, is (and has been) my reason for discussing this. Not some perceived (by you) other problem.

 

[tommyjones]

I'm more than willing to talk with you about it, IRL.More importantly, the babies are the ones that will have to die over it. THAT, Tommy, is (and has been) my reason for discussing this. Not some perceived (by you) other problem.

what is wrong with talking about it right here? you did before, but you dont when talking about it clearly shows your motivation and intentions.


none of them are your babies, and its not your decision. your issues aside, we the people have decided this is a legal procedure, and as you have posted, many states feel it is in the best interests of the state to actually pay for abortions for women who want them but dont have the money.

 

[bcp]

what is wrong with talking about it right here? you did before, but you dont when talking about it clearly shows your motivation and intentions.


none of them are your babies, and its not your decision. your issues aside, we the people have decided this is a legal procedure, and as you have posted, many states feel it is in the best interests of the state to actually pay for abortions for women who want them but dont have the money.

we the people did not decide.
certainly you are not saying that all laws are just and accepted by all.