Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

Racingwolf · Oct 20, 2005

THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

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I am a Catholic and I could have told you this a long time ago. I can not figure out why The Catholic Church uses the bible against so many people when they themselves know that it was written by man and man is not infallible. We have to stop acting like everything in their is Gods exact words, when it is not.

2ndAmendment · Oct 20, 2005

If you knew anything about the Bible (capital B), you would know that the falling away of people from belief in God and the Bible is prophesied in the Bible.

The Catholics have been far from the Truth since the Reformation. That was the reason for the Reformation.

bohman · Oct 21, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
The Catholics have been far from the Truth since the Reformation. That was the reason for the Reformation.

The Catholic church as I know it preaches faith in God and a belief in Jesus as our Savior. What Truth am I missing?

Fred Hoeck · Oct 21, 2005

The oldest books of what became the New Testament were not even written until the end of the first century. That is why the bible is not the only source for faith. We have the Deposit of Faith, Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium for knowledge. These sources are protected by the one, true, Catholic Church. The dissetents do not have the Truth.

2ndAmendment · Oct 21, 2005

bohman said:
The Catholic church as I know it preaches faith in God and a belief in Jesus as our Savior. What Truth am I missing?

Immaculate Conception of Mary (Jesus was immaculately conceived, Mary was not), the Assumption of Mary, the transformation of the Eucharist, the infallibility of the pope, the selling of indulgences, purgatory, and recently, not believing the Bible is divinely inspired and the Truth, to name a few.

If you wish to believe in those things, do so. Just do not loose sight that none of those are in the Bible. I would rather concentrate on what we have in common, faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord. Rather than picking at each other over our differences, we should be encouraging each other in our Christian walk.

2ndAmendment · Oct 21, 2005

Fred Hoeck said:
The oldest books of what became the New Testament were not even written until the end of the first century. That is why the bible is not the only source for faith. We have the Deposit of Faith, Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium for knowledge. These sources are protected by the one, true, Catholic Church. The dissetents do not have the Truth.

And how do you reconcile that with this.

2 Timothy 3

1But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. 2For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,

3unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,

4treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,

5holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

6For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,

7always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith.

9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes's and Jambres's folly was also.

10Now you followed my teaching, conduct, purpose, faith, patience, love, perseverance,

11persecutions, and sufferings, such as happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium and at Lystra; what persecutions I endured, and out of them all the Lord rescued me!

12Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

13But evil men and impostors will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.

14You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

15and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

17so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Fred Hoeck · Oct 21, 2005

The dissedents beieve in "Solo Scriptura" is false for the reason I stated, if the new testament did nopt exist in the early days of the Church, how can they claim they have to have a written scripture? Also, the Gospels state that much more was done by Jesus that were not written down.
God would not enter the world in an unclean womb, therefore, Mary was conceived without sin. In the Apocolypse, it says that after the virgin gave birth she was taken away. Jesus made St. Peter the first Pope, and said the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the Church. When Jesus told his followers that they would have to eat His Body and drink His Blood, most ran away, if He only meant symbolically, He would have called them back.

Railroad · Oct 21, 2005

I believe that the Bible is the Word of God, written by Him via chosen instruments (people). Very simply, no additions or subtractions. I realize that many other people don't believe the same thing (and that's a pity in my view). So I disagree with the Catholic Church on this issue.

DD214 · Oct 21, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Immaculate Conception of Mary (Jesus was immaculately conceived, Mary was not), the Assumption of Mary, the transformation of the Eucharist, the infallibility of the pope, the selling of indulgences, purgatory, and recently, not believing the Bible is divinely inspired and the Truth, to name a few.

If you wish to believe in those things, do so. Just do not loose sight that none of those are in the Bible. I would rather concentrate on what we have in common, faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord. Rather than picking at each other over our differences, we should be encouraging each other in our Christian walk.

Wow. The internet forum version of a drive by shooting. You drop in, make a very inflammatory statement deriding the faith of Catholics, and then ask Catholics to not respond in kind since as you claim we shouldn't be "picking at each other over our differences". Very revealing.

The subject of this post, and the accompanying article are complete misrepresentations of what the Church teaches. The Church does not teach that the Bible is not completely true, but rather it warns against excessive fundamentalism. The Bible is not a science or history textbook. If taken to an extreme, fundamentalism can lead to the belief in such subjects as Geocentrism, that the earth is unmovable and that the Universe revolves around the earth. That is what the Church is warning against, not matters of faith and salvation. Here is an excerpt from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which defines the official stance of the Church in regard to the Bible:

II. INSPIRATION AND TRUTH OF SACRED SCRIPTURE

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

107 The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a "religion of the book." Christianity is the religion of the "Word" of God, a word which is "not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living".73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

That hardly claims that the Bible is not completely true. And even if, per chance, a priest or Bishop made such a heretical claim, that does not in any way translate to an official teaching of the Catholic Church. It is just as if your pastor decided to teach that the Bible isn't absolutely true. You would not throw your entire denomination out the window, but rather you would realize that your pastor had lost his mind and that his statements were in conflict with what your church actually believes.

As far as your litany of heresies, do you even know why Catholics believe such things, or where such a belief comes from, or do you just accept that they must not be true since they aren't spelled out in the Bible? If the latter, why do you go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday? That is not in the Bible. Why do you accept that all of the books that are currently in the Bible are supposed to be there? Jesus didn't pass on a Biblical table of contents enumerating each book to be included. Whether you consciously agree or not, you trust that the Catholic Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, made the right decision in the 4th century when the official canon was determined. (Actually you probably don't, because you are most likely missing 7 books in the Old Testament, but that is a different topic). Why do you accept that these fathers of the Christian Church made the right decisions concerning Sunday Sabbath and the canon of the Bible, but not on matters such as the Eucharist and Purgatory? How do you decide what to believe and what not to believe when not all of your beliefs are actually in the Bible (including Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide)?

Believe me when I say that I know exactly where you are coming from. I spent the first 29 years of my life as a Catholic bashing Protestant. It wasn't until I began to question where my beliefs originated, and the history of Christianity, that I made the unintentional and very undesirable (at the time) discovery that not only were the earliest Christians very Catholic, but that the Catholic Church actually does contain the fullness of truth as passed down by Jesus and the Apostles, through both written and oral tradition (2 Thess 2:15). I officially entered the Catholic Church 2 years ago, and I now feel comfort knowing that I have access to the complete fullness of truth, as intended by God.

AMP · Oct 21, 2005

DD214 said:
Wow. The internet forum version of a drive by shooting. You drop in, make a very inflammatory statement deriding the faith of Catholics, and then ask Catholics to not respond in kind since as you claim we shouldn't be "picking at each other over our differences". Very revealing.

Woah, you are going to accuse 2A of a drive by and ignore this?!?

Originally Posted by Fred Hoeck
The oldest books of what became the New Testament were not even written until the end of the first century. That is why the bible is not the only source for faith. We have the Deposit of Faith, Tradition, and the Church's Magisterium for knowledge. These sources are protected by the one, true, Catholic Church. The dissetents do not have the Truth.

Christ is the Truth. All else is dogma, resurrected time and again, with different religions at it's core.
[

2ndAmendment · Oct 24, 2005

DD214 said:
Wow. The internet forum version of a drive by shooting. You drop in, make a very inflammatory statement deriding the faith of Catholics, and then ask Catholics to not respond in kind since as you claim we shouldn't be "picking at each other over our differences". Very revealing.

Reveals that I have a life other than the Internet.

I don't have time right now to get into this, but I will be back.

bohman · Oct 24, 2005

2ndAmendment said:
Immaculate Conception of Mary (Jesus was immaculately conceived, Mary was not), the Assumption of Mary, the transformation of the Eucharist, the infallibility of the pope, the selling of indulgences, purgatory, and recently, not believing the Bible is divinely inspired and the Truth, to name a few.

If you wish to believe in those things, do so. Just do not loose sight that none of those are in the Bible. I would rather concentrate on what we have in common, faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord. Rather than picking at each other over our differences, we should be encouraging each other in our Christian walk.

I've never claimed to be very scholarly when it comes to matters of faith and the church. Haven't read anything from the bible in some time (not proud of that, just the way it is). I think it was quite a while ago that I decided that living by the golden rule, treat others as you would have them treat you, was all I needed. So let me preface any remarks I make here by saying that I don't claim to be an expert.

I was raised Catholic. Went to church every Sunday, went to CCD classes as a kid. Even paid attention most of the time. I don't remember anyone ever saying that anyone besides Jesus was immaculately conceived. And indulgences? I'm fairly certain that if I were to wave a few dollars at my pastor and ask for an indulgence, he'd laugh hard enough to have a stroke. If the Catholic church still sold indulgences, you'd think I would have heard about it during 20+ years of attending Sunday services. And no one ever said that the Bible was not divinely inspired. Like someone else here said, that isn't a Church-wide decision, just the statement of one person or smaller group.

Misunderstandings about the current state of Catholicism aside, your latter statement is something I can get behind. No sense arguing over the details when we could be cooperating with one another.

Fred Hoeck · Oct 25, 2005

bohman said:
I've never claimed to be very scholarly when it comes to matters of faith and the church. Haven't read anything from the bible in some time (not proud of that, just the way it is). I think it was quite a while ago that I decided that living by the golden rule, treat others as you would have them treat you, was all I needed. So let me preface any remarks I make here by saying that I don't claim to be an expert.

I was raised Catholic. Went to church every Sunday, went to CCD classes as a kid. Even paid attention most of the time. I don't remember anyone ever saying that anyone besides Jesus was immaculately conceived.

What CCD classes did you attend? If you are Catholic, as you claim, you would know that Mary was Immaculatlely conceived, hence the Feast of The Immaculate Conception, December 8, a Holy Day of Obligation, that means you must attend Mass on that day. Look at your Miraculous Medal. "Oh Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee".

Steve · Oct 25, 2005

Fred Hoeck said:
What CCD classes did you attend? If you are Catholic, as you claim, you would know that Mary was Immaculatlely conceived, hence the Feast of The Immaculate Conception, December 8, a Holy Day of Obligation, that means you must attend Mass on that day. Look at your Miraculous Medal. "Oh Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee".

Just to clarify Fred's statement, this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia...

Catholic Encyclopedia said:
". . .in the first instance of her conception . . ." The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.

AMP · Oct 25, 2005

Steve said:
Just to clarify Fred's statement, this is from the Catholic Encyclopedia...

OK, here is my question - How do the Catholics KNOW this? Who made that up? From what divine source did that come?

I may be a Catholic cause I was baptized one, but I have some real problems with things like this.

Steve · Oct 25, 2005

AMP said:
OK, here is my question - How do the Catholics KNOW this? Who made that up? From what divine source did that come?

I may be a Catholic cause I was baptized one, but I have some real problems with things like this.

Me too. I guess we'll never know until we're dead, huh?

Qurious · Oct 25, 2005

This is another sign of the times.

Guess the bible isn't accurate even though it predicted something like this would occur...

Fred Hoeck · Oct 25, 2005

AMP said:
OK, here is my question - How do the Catholics KNOW this? Who made that up? From what divine source did that come?

There is such a thing as faith, either you have it or you don't. Now, Christ founded the Catholic Church and made St. Peter the first Pope. The New Testament was compiled by the Catholic Church through the power of the Holy Spirit. When the Pope makes a statement regarding faith and morals he speaks infalliably because he is inspired by the Holy Spirit.
If you have faith, you believe, if you do not have faith, you don't.
The people who depend only on the bible also do so based on faith, there is no proof in a scientific, physical sense.

Steve · Oct 25, 2005

Qurious said:
This is another sign of the times.

Guess the bible isn't accurate even though it predicted something like this would occur...

Goerge Orwell predicted much in his novel "1984"; Alvin Toffler predicted even more accurately in his nonfiction treatise "Future Shock".

Each generation has seen signs of the Apocolypse in their own times. What gives this generation the right to think it is any more special?

2ndAmendment · Oct 25, 2005

OK, here we go.

Catholic = universal - universal != Christian. The first recorded instance of the term "catholic church" is found in the letter of St. Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans, written about the year 110. The Christian church was declared the official religion of the Roman Empire by Emperor Constantine. Constantine was a "Christian" but did not formally renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of death. The "church" was made more inclusive by tolerating bowing before and praying to graven images and including a female deity. Of course these are expressly against the Ten Commandments and other scripture.

Exodus 20:4-6

 4"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.

 5"You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

6but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Deuteronomy 4:15-18

15"So watch yourselves carefully, since you did not see any form on the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb from the midst of the fire,

16so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

17the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky,

18the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth.

There are other scriptures, but one is enough; I have given you two.

Peter, the first pope - There is no evidence from the Bible that Peter was the first pope even though this is claimed by the Catholic church. The Biblical evidence indicates that Paul probably founded the church at Rome while he was imprisoned there.

Fred Hoeck likes to bring up when certain scripture was written as evidence of correctness.

Immaculate Conception of Mary - established in 1854 by Pope Pius IX in the bull Ineffabilis Deus. This also declared that Mary was without sin. This is a contradiction to the Bible.

Romans 3:21-26

21But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

24being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Even Mary said she had a Savior.

Luke 1:46-55

46And Mary said:
"My soul exalts the Lord,
47And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
48"For He has had regard for the humble state of His bondslave;
For behold, from this time on all generations will count me blessed.
49"For the Mighty One has done great things for me;
And holy is His name.
50"AND HIS MERCY IS UPON GENERATION AFTER GENERATION
TOWARD THOSE WHO FEAR HIM.
51"He has done mighty deeds with His arm;
He has scattered those who were proud in the thoughts of their heart.
52"He has brought down rulers from their thrones,
And has exalted those who were humble.
53"HE HAS FILLED THE HUNGRY WITH GOOD THINGS;
And sent away the rich empty-handed.
54"He has given help to Israel His servant,
In remembrance of His mercy,
55As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and his descendants forever."

A sinless person does not need a Savior.

The Assumption of Mary - proclaimed in 1950 by Pope Pius XII. You will not find this in the Bible anywhere. Two people never died and were assumed into heaven, Enoch (Gen 5:24 Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.) and Elijah (II Kings 2:11 As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind to heaven.). Jesus also ascended into heaven, but He died for our sins first and was resurrected.

The transformation of the Eucharist - became official at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215. The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) teaches that the wafer and the wine actually becomes the flesh and blood of Jesus and is to be worshiped and adored by the people. (ref. The Catholic Catechism, Garden City, New York

oubleday, 1975, p. 463) I have received the wafer and wine at an open communion at a Catholic church; the wafer and wine did not change. I don't think it did for anyone else either.

The infallibility of the pope - The infallibility of the pope was declared doctrine in 1870 in the First Vatican Council.

The selling of indulgences - I don't think the church does this any more, but it is the reason Martin Luther, an Augustinian priest, broke from the RCC. The RCC was selling pardons from purgatory in order to finance the building of St. Peter's Basilica.

purgatory - The doctrine of purgatory was declared in 1274 at the Second Council of Lyons.

The RCC has continued to add traditions of men to the gospel and the letters of the apostles over the years. This is also in contradiction to the Bible.

Colossians 2:6-12

6Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

7having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

9For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

10and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

I don't expect that any of this will convince anyone, but the Truth is in the Bible if you chose to seek it.

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

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