Christianity and Liberalism

[vraiblonde]

There was a guy on Laura Ingraham this morning - don't know who he was because I only caught a few minutes of it - but he was some liberal dude pleading his case for not fighting terrorism or against our global enemies.

He said something interesting and kind of caught Laura off-guard - that Jesus taught that we should love our enemies, i.e.:

Luke 6:27-31

[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

So you hear about the "Evangelical" movement and how Christians are supposedly all Republicans and political conservatives, but wouldn't it stand to reason that Christians would be *liberals* and NOT conservatives? Wouldn't they vote for the "pull out" crowd and not the "stay the course" folks? Wouldn't they vote for higher taxes and more government welfare? Wouldn't they think illegal immigrants have a perfect right to anything of ours?

So why are (supposedly) all these evangelical Christians voting for George Bush and conservative causes?

I thought this was interesting and worth discussing.

 

[SamSpade]

I never know the answer to this except:

From what I've seen, the ones most vigorously opposed to the war would never turn the other cheek if it were struck. Not in a million years. They would never ever walk the extra mile if the enemy compelled them to go one mile, and they would never give the shirt off their back to their enemy or love their enemy.

Jesus also told people to bless those who persecute you, and to overcome evil with good. I don't see that. I see angry, p!ssed off nitwits who like to cherry-pick Bible verses because they don't want to confront anything. They want to remind YOU that you're doing wrong, but aren't forthright in trying to set the example.

It's why I've always loved people like Ghandi - he didn't just reprove people for their violence - he stood in harm's way ON PURPOSE. And let them beat the crap out of him.

When I see liberals actually DOING that, with respect to the war - then I will listen to them. And I absolutely mean that. When they walk into Sadr City unarmed to put flowers in gun barrels - I'll believe they actually believe what they say.

 

[Bustem' Down]

There was a guy on Laura Ingraham this morning - don't know who he was because I only caught a few minutes of it - but he was some liberal dude pleading his case for not fighting terrorism or against our global enemies.

He said something interesting and kind of caught Laura off-guard - that Jesus taught that we should love our enemies, i.e.:

Luke 6:27-31

[27] "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. [29] If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. [30] Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. [31] Do to others as you would have them do to you.

So you hear about the "Evangelical" movement and how Christians are supposedly all Republicans and political conservatives, but wouldn't it stand to reason that Christians would be *liberals* and NOT conservatives? Wouldn't they vote for the "pull out" crowd and not the "stay the course" folks? Wouldn't they vote for higher taxes and more government welfare? Wouldn't they think illegal immigrants have a perfect right to anything of ours?

So why are (supposedly) all these evangelical Christians voting for George Bush and conservative causes?

I thought this was interesting and worth discussing.

I think that there is a prevelant thinking of
Republican = Conservative = Christian
and
Democrat = Liberal = Not Christian

I know many people who are die hard Christians and conservative as hell, but do not follow the Republican Party and I know people who are very liberal who think that the Democrats have it wrong. My dad is about as conservative as they come (Hard core Mormon) and he hate George Bush, does not support the war in Iraq, and is dissatisfied with the Republican Party, but his opposition to things like embryonic stem cell reaserch (which I'm not sure he really understands) abortion, and homosexual marriage, keeps him voting repub. In the end I just don't think the lines are as black and white as the media and political and spiritual leaders would like people to believe.

 

[SamSpade]

I think that there is a prevelant thinking of
Republican = Conservative = Christian
and
Democrat = Liberal = Not Christian

Yes - and No.

Tons of exit polls and surveys have confirmed the so-called "stereotype". While no group falls utterly into one camp or another - by and large Republicans go to church more - are more apt to call themselves "Christian" - are less likely to be atheist. It's not a colossal difference statistically, but it's significant enough to declare as true.

And just as likely ---

I've heard liberals go on to no end citing Republicans as being against charity, volunteerism and so on. I used to belong to a volunteer organization where someone asked in one of the mailing lists what party people belonged to - because he assumed that only Democrats would volunteer their time for charity. Numerically, it was about even, which is unusual for a volunteer organization in the DC area.

What was his rationale? Well, policy of course. Republicans *believe* what they believe because they're selfish, money-grubbing racist bast@rds. So it's a safe bet they'd never do good to others just for the hell of it.

 

[vraiblonde]

From what I've seen, the ones most vigorously opposed to the war would never turn the other cheek if it were struck. Not in a million years. They would never ever walk the extra mile if the enemy compelled them to go one mile, and they would never give the shirt off their back to their enemy or love their enemy.

But none of them ever said they would, either, nor do they follow a religious doctrine that teaches that.

I'm not trying to bash Christianity or anything like that, but what this guy said was thought-provoking and made sense, even though I disagree with his political views.

 

[Dondi]

I quite frankly haven't heard of any strong Christian liberals running for office. Or at least one who is overtly religious or evangelical.

The Clintons did attend a Baptist church while Bill was in office, but I don't think he was a particularly strong model of Christianity in light of his more risque behavior.

I think there are other issues that swings Christians toward the conservative right, like the abortion and gay rights issues.

As far as the "love your enemies/turn the other cheek" issue, I think that is meant on a more personal, individual level. The fight against terrorism is at a national level and is meant to preserve the freedoms that we have in this country so that we can go to church without fear of being bombed. Now you might not agree with how the Bush adminstration is going about this, but the intent is to keep terrorists out of our country so that we can enjoy our freedom of religion.

As a conservative myself, I'd love to pull out. But I'm also apprehensive about what would happen if that Middle East region becomes a bigger quagmire that it is now. Seems like we could be holding pandoras box slightly cracked opened. If we leave now, would we be in a worse fix with the already unstable Middle East. If we leave, would insurgents have the freedom to plan their next move against the U.S.

I hate the fact that we're in this mess, and looking back, I'm beginning to wonder why we shifted to Iraq and left Afganistan unfinished.

 

[vraiblonde]

Numerically, it was about even, which is unusual for a volunteer organization in the DC area.

And since the majority of DC area residents are Democrats, that would mean that a significantly HIGHER percentage of Republicans volunteer and donate. Right, or no?

 

[vraiblonde]

but the intent is to keep terrorists out of our country so that we can enjoy our freedom of religion.

But (not to be facetious) wouldn't a Christian be able to practice *perfect* freedom of religion if they were dead and in Heaven?

Because really, when you think about it, the Muslim "40 virgins" or whatever isn't that different from what Jesus promised if you were a good Christian - you get a reward in the afterlife.

I'm just wondering if it's true that Christians are predominantly Republican, or if that's just a stereotype. And if it's true, why, considering the teachings of Jesus align more with liberalism?

 

[ylexot]

And since the majority of DC area residents are Democrats, that would mean that a significantly HIGHER percentage of Republicans volunteer and donate. Right, or no?

I've seen it mentioned on the news several times that there is a study out saying that Republicans contribute more to charity :shrug:

 

[ylexot]

Here's an interesting article:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/1222/p15s01-ussc.html

 

[SamSpade]

And since the majority of DC area residents are Democrats, that would mean that a significantly HIGHER percentage of Republicans volunteer and donate. Right, or no?

Well that's why I thought it was unusual to be balanced.

And just to be fair, it doesn't "prove" anything about Republicans except that stereotypes about them can be hugely false. This guy was operating on the premise that Republicans do what they do because they're racist, selfish pigs. Hence, they'd never help anyone. He got irate and insisted that people were LYING. Now why on earth would a Democrat lie and say they were Republican?

Personally, it actually FIT my experience better. Most religious types I know are conservative - mostly - and believe in being charitable. It goes with the whole religious territory. They don't believe in charity as some sort of civic responsibility - they see it as serving their God. They give generously to their church. One guy I had as a roommate actually gave over HALF his income to charity. So it came as no surprise to me to see that the two overlapped. There were people who participated in their own church groups who chose to go to this one too. And sometimes we helped people, but other times we just cleaned up parks. Not particularly "religious" work.

 

[SamSpade]

Because really, when you think about it, the Muslim "40 virgins" or whatever isn't that different from what Jesus promised if you were a good Christian - you get a reward in the afterlife.

I saw a YouTube comedy routine and - well hell it might have been referenced HERE for all I know - that basically went that the whole 72 virgins thing works REAL GOOD - if you're a man.

Of course, if you're a woman, you have to wear the burka, you can't vote, you can't drive a car, you can't speak up, you have no rights, but if you work hard, you'll go to heaven, where you'll be a sex slave to a terrorist for eternity.

Maybe hell is a little better for them.

Edited to add : It's at Little Green Footballs under the heading And Now For Something Completely Different.

 

[ylexot]

Another article:
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/204/story_20419_1.html

SYRACUSE, N.Y. -- Syracuse University professor Arthur C. Brooks is about to become the darling of the religious right in America -- and it's making him nervous.

...

In the book, he cites extensive data analysis to demonstrate that values advocated by conservatives -- from church attendance and two-parent families to the Protestant work ethic and a distaste for government-funded social services -- make conservatives more generous than liberals.

 

[vraiblonde]

As far as the "love your enemies/turn the other cheek" issue, I think that is meant on a more personal, individual level.

But then wouldn't Christians be *against* protecting their home and personal belongings? A burglar breaks into the Christian house, wouldn't they just give him what he wants, plus their stashed savings as well?

I actually had a friend who was a devout Christian and she was TOTALLY against guns or any kind of personal protection. I was like, okay, so some guy jumps you in a dark alley, rapes you and kills you - wouldn't you wish you had some means of protecting yourself and fending him off? She said no, that she would find her rightful place in Heaven and let God punish her attacker.

I thought that was interesting and admirable, even though I don't agree with her beliefs.

 

[SamSpade]

I thought that was interesting and admirable, even though I don't agree with her beliefs.

I used to believe that, when I was in a Christian cult. After all, if Jesus said it, it's always true, right?

But I think in this case context IS an issue. Generally, when he spoke about persecution, there would be persecution from the Romans and other religious zealots. Somehow, I don't think it meant allow people to walk all over you. Paul didn't stir up crowds necessarily; he did get beaten and tortured, once so bad they dragged his body outside the city believing him already dead. But he ran away at least as often and once, when falsely accused, demanded a public apology and an official escort out of the city rather than let his false imprisonment be quietly dealt with.

 

[PsyOps]

But none of them ever said they would, either, nor do they follow a religious doctrine that teaches that.

I'm not trying to bash Christianity or anything like that, but what this guy said was thought-provoking and made sense, even though I disagree with his political views.

I don’t find this as so much Christians supporting war. Christians struggle to understand God’s will as displayed in the Bible. These are things, believed by Christians, that must happen to fulfill God’s will.

“For nation will rise up against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in various places; there will also be famines. These things are merely the beginning of birth pangs.” Mark 13:8

Many believe we are in the midst of the apocalypse.

“Another came forth, a red horse. To him who sat on it was given power to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another. There was given to him a great sword.” Revelations 6:4

For non-Christians (heck for many Christians for that matter) the whole concept of what God is doing is not rational nor does it make any sense (from our point of view). Why would God tell us to love our enemies yet create circumstances to make us go to war with them? I think there is a hint in this verse:

"As you enter the house, give it your greeting. If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.” Matthew 10:12-15

And this one:

“And Jesus entered the temple and drove out all those who were buying and selling in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who were selling doves.” Matthew 21:12

This was quite a violent act coming from someone telling us to turn the other cheek. But, Jesus acted when his Father’s house was being threatened and desecrated. And I believe out of this same act God wants us to defend out faith when threathened:

“He said to them, "When I sent you forth without a money bag or a sack or sandals, were you in need of anything?" "No, nothing," they replied. He said to them, 12 "But now one who has a money bag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.” Luke 22:25-26

I interpret this to mean that when Jesus was on this earth he would not let anyone harm his followers. But he knew when he was gone this peace would come to an end and there would be many wars fought on his behalf.

“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword” Matthew 10:34

Jesus knew the chaos he would bring on this earth and how widespread it would be. God wants us to defend our faith. Loving your enemy does not mean not fighting them. If, once you have turned the other cheek and they do not accept God (Yahweh), but instead threaten you, I believe God would see you justified in defending yourself.

Christians see their faith as being threatened by the radical Islamists as well as the secularists (typically liberals) in this country. This era is just another example of how Christians are being persecuted for their faith. But just as God led the Hebrews in defending their land Christians also believe this land (America) is a sanctuary for the Christian faith (to a large degree) and must defend it to keep our faith alive.

But don’t believe for one second that Christians love war. We hate it; with every fiber of our souls.